Fox Patent Shows Automatically Decoupling Hub & Disengaging Derailleur

Jan 6, 2023
by Seb Stott  
photo

Words: Seb Stott & Matt Beer

We always keep an eye out for patents that might reveal what the bike industry has in store for the years ahead, but in this case, Jessie-May Morgan over at Bikerumor got the scoop on a very juicy patent from Fox.

The patent itself describes two separate inventions both aimed at improving suspension sensitivity. One is a freehub where the pawls can automatically and electronically disengage, effectively giving a neutral or "coasting" gear for the benefit of suspension sensitivity, before automatically reengaging when it's time to pedal. The second is a derailleur where the clutch can automatically switch off during especially rapid suspension compression events (such as hitting a large bump), thereby allowing the suspension to compress more freely without the clutch engaged. The clutch would automatically switch back on the rest of the time to prevent chain derailment.

The specifics of how they would achieve this are quite open-ended as patents usually are.

photo
Patent drawing.


The Theory

As shown in the diagram below, as the suspension compresses, the rear axle gets further from the bottom bracket and the upper span of chain between the cassette and the chainring gets longer. This is known as chain growth. To allow this chain growth, the derailleur cage has to extend to provide chain slack and the cassette has to rotate clockwise in order to allow some of that slack to move to the upper chain span.

photo
Illustration: Taj Mihelich / Pinkbike

Occasionally, if the rear wheel is locked up or spinning very slowly (picture hucking off a railway platform at a walking pace) then the cassette/freehub catches up with the wheel rotation speed and so cannot rotate fast enough to allow the chain enough slack for the suspension to compress freely. When this happens, the cranks may rotate backward as the taught chain pulls on the top of the chainring. That rotation of the cranks is called pedal kickback.


Canyon Project Dis\Connect

by mikelevy
Views: 117,637    Faves: 26    Comments: 0
Canyon's freehub disengagement mechanism was controlled by a bar-mounted remote and was soon abandoned.
Gee Atherton s neutral gear mechanism. The idea here is that on rougher sections of track He d shift into the dead gear to eliminate pedal feedback.
Gee Atherton's homemade alternative was a neutral gear that he'd shift into on rough sections to eliminate pedal kickback.


Matt Beer's take:

While the incorporation of sensors to detect forces through the suspension makes Fox’s patent highly elaborate, the idea remains the same as the mechanical systems we've seen; isolate the suspension action from the chain forces.

The electronically controlled derailleur clutch and hub pawls work in unison with sensors on the wheel axles and crank spindle to calculate when to engage and disengage. Opposite to most freehub designs, the Race Face Vault hub, and the one in the drawing, features pawls that are installed on the hub shell, as opposed to most designs that place them on the freehub body. That leaves plenty of room inside the two-piece shell to house servo motors with the ability to retract the pawls away from the teeth on the freehub body, thereby creating a neutral transmission. Similarly, a servo would simultaneously release the tension on the derailleur clutch.


Fox suspension. Photo by Stefan Licko
Fox suspension. Photo by Stefan Licko


How long has Fox been working on this? That’s hard to say, but the large volume, two-piece Race Face Vault hub shell that debuted in 2016 could offer a hint. Last season, we saw Fox use similar sensors on Jesse Melamed's Rocky Mountain Altitude during testing of the Float RAD shock that measured the force acting on the suspension and calculated the pitch of the bike. This patent could be Fox and Race Face’s maneuver to battle SRAM’s electronic component front.

We've reach out to Fox for comment and will update this article as any further information comes in.

Posted In:
Reviews and Tech First Looks Patent Pending Drivetrain Fox Factory Race Face


Author Info:
seb-stott avatar

Member since Dec 29, 2014
297 articles
Report
Must Read This Week
Police Called to Scott Sports Headquarters as CEO Dispute Continues
63820 views
First Ride: Fox Releases New Grip X & Grip X2 Dampers
46053 views
Pinkbike Poll: Center Lock or 6-Bolt Brake Rotor Mounting?
42318 views
Tech Briefing: Fancy Suspension, Carbon Wheels, Spring Apparel & More
37082 views
Pinkbike's DH Fantasy League: Get Your Team On The Line for Round 1
33262 views
SRAM Patent Shows Compact Motor x Battery Unit
31377 views
Bike Check: Craig Evans' Airdrop Edit V5
30390 views
First Look: Fair Bicycle's Drop Best Offset Saddle Clamp is Universally Compatible
29081 views

235 Comments
  • 366 7
 I'd be curious to know what the majority of riders really want when it comes to innovation. I suspect that most people don't really want yet another thing that requires a battery or any sort of software updates and so on. That stuff is so low on the list of things I want to think about while I'm riding a bike. How about more user serviceable products? Looks like are moving in the exact opposite direction... Dangly rear derailleurs that are easy to break? Those seem to be sticking around too. How about more universal standards to help prevent immediate obsolescence and allow for more cross compatibility....? Sometimes the bike industry just drives me nuts.
  • 150 4
 Yes. Please just give me an optimized, lighter version of Pinion drivetrain with regular shifters instead of grip shifters. I will buy a Zerode with that drivetrain immediately.
  • 33 22
 While I don't disagree, I think this is obviously going to be targeted at WC-level DH, if it ever actually gets made. And these innovations do trickle down as proven tech at reasonable price points. Wireless electronic shifting used to seem like science fiction, now AXS is relatively affordable and very easy to use.
  • 61 0
 +1 for more home serviceable products
  • 4 0
 @Drew-O: the hub is to get ride of kickback, I think scott had a manual prototype version already that brendog used. Totally not needed for high pivot DH bikes theses days as there's no kickback to talk about. Will it reduce drag to be of a real benefit, doubt it, or will it just add another failure point risk like these guys can snap chains.
  • 28 3
 I would be happy to have a clutched rear derailleur that disengages when I shift. Shifting is so much better when the clutch is off and the less the clutch needs to work, the longer it goes without maintenance. I've always thought that could be accomplished with an additional mechanism that releases the clutch when the shifter cable moves, sans batteries.
  • 6 2
 THis..... so many times... Well said.
  • 26 0
 I don't disagree, but I wouldn't hold your breath. The reality is that we get our products from a bunch of businesses. Businesses, no matter how admirable their intentions, are ultimately driven by profit. When the likes of BMW and Apple demonstrated that consumers will accept products they can't service themselves, companies around the world recognized the opportunity for additional revenue streams. If you have to buy that special tool or send the product back to be serviced, that's an additional revenue stream to eek out from that initial sale. With perhaps a few exceptions, I would say those companies that do focus on user serviceability don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts. They do it to differentiate their products in a crowded marketplace to gain market-share and thus...make more profit.
  • 5 1
 Home serviceable products don't really put money into the Bike industry though; less need for bike mechanics/shops and you're spending less rebuying what they sold you. A motor and gearbox combo seems baffling they've not done it yet, but in my opinion they're holding off as long as possible because that means you'll never need to service/replace 2/3 main consumables that generate a lot of money for the big boys.
  • 54 56
 It's really important for you to understand that in 2023, you are no longer the sole customer of the things you buy, and what you want deeply does not matter. For instance, when you buy a television, you pay for half of the cost of the TV, and the data brokers who get to listen to the data stream out of your TV pay for the other half. Half of the cost of every TV sold is paid by spying on what you watch:

www.businessinsider.com/smart-tv-data-collection-advertising-2019-1
www.mentalfloss.com/article/581286/smart-tvs-are-cheap-because-they-sell-your-data
www.businessinsider.com/smart-tv-data-collection-advertising-2019-1

A lot of people think this is contained to televisions, but it's not. Did you know that an accurate power meter on your home power grid can tell a data broker what web pages every computer in your house is visiting and when, as well as what TV shows every TV is watching? This is why you can't buy a home solar system that does not mandate a full time internet connection. If you take your Tesla Powerwall off the internet, they will shut off your power.

You are not the customer of your solar system.

What about your car? Well, your car is sending a rich data feed of where you go and what you do to your car company, full time, and it's not a feature you can disable. Modern cars are paid for mostly by the data they generate about you. Here's a few reports about it, and a guy from DHS giving a great talk about how they love using this data to convict people of crimes:

samcurry.net/web-hackers-vs-the-auto-industry
youtu.be/E0DQEVgJY5k?t=541
www.markey.senate.gov/news/press-releases/markey-report-reveals-automobile-security-and-privacy-vulnerabilities

So, you're not the customer of your car, the data brokers are.

So, are we really here on pinkbike complaining that it seems like bikes are being made in response to demands bike riders aren't making? Bike riders aren't the customers of these data-driven systems, so of course they're going to pack in a bunch of crap you don't want. It's not about you. In about a decade, absolutely nothing will be about you- now is a good time to start getting used to it.
  • 8 0
 I seriously wouldnt be so Sure.

Atm here at the trails are 70-80% E-Bikers with most often top of the line Levos etc who get all their Things done at the bikeshop and dont give a f about cost.

E-MTB is the new golf- at some of the trailcenters there are AMGs or other 100k Cars lined up like in the 1st disctrict of Vienna
  • 13 0
 I'm just looking forward to the day when I have to pay extra money to get a bike that doesn't have any batteries in it.
  • 16 3
 @NotNamed: how long until emtbs come with gps and Strava baked in (you can’t turn it off) and then start getting ridden down every unsanctioned trail in your area? Happy to take this time stamped comment as a prediction people can call me on in 2027.
  • 9 0
 @Mtmw: or maybe they’ll program the bike not to work on unsanctioned trails……..
  • 2 0
 @ismellfish: I expect landowner geofencing of bikes will have to wait until everything we call a "bike" has a computer in it. Probably ten years out.
  • 16 7
 @ismellfish: What's going to come sooner is subscription features. $10/month to unlock top gear on your road bike, $20/month to unlock real time suspension optimization, $5 a month for AI-controlled seatpost return, $100/month for access to geo-fenced private bike park trails. Feel free to call me on this prediction in 2027 as well.
  • 17 0
 @Mtmw: This is one of the most interesting comments I've read in PB in years. I knew about the insane tracking done by facebook (when i deleted facebook i got a folder containing everything they knew about me and they even knew what pizza did i order) or tiktok. But the power meter thing is ridiculous. Care to tldr explain how that works? also the samcurry article is crazy. I definitely dont want and will not get used to it though.
  • 6 0
 @Mtmw: Don't you dare post something on social media critical of IMBA, your biking privileges will be revoked for the weekend!
  • 4 0
 @mkul7r4: effigear's mimic solves half of that
  • 16 2
 Even a lighter Pinion is still going to have too much drag for most people to accept. its a three stage gearbox, with very large & draggy seals since the output is concentric with the input.

There are studies showing the Rohloff to be within spitting distance (efficiency wise) of a clean derailleur in the lab, so with dirt and muck its implied the efficiency could be equal for lower gears. Kindernay makes a lighter, more practical, mountain-bike-first hub that claims comparable efficiency. Mid mount one of these like an old Zerode G2/G1, and maybe that could compete against traditional drivetrains?

I'm skeptical, however. I haven't ridden a Rohloff but all the bloggers who do bike packing say that even when you break it in they are like pedaling thru a thin layer of mud. I think the most efficient and viable design woudl be something like Effigear thats a single stage, non-concentric gearbox. Effigear itself doesn't appear to be that great, so as they say its all in the execution. If a single stage, Effigear-like gearbox engaged only the active gears on both input shaft and output shaft, so the rest of the gears are not engaged and not spinning, then I think (hope) efficiency could rise to compete with derailleurs. Guaranteeing that pawls or dog teeth engage two different gears on two different shafts at the exact time is very hard, which is why no ones done it. The last thing you want is for one shaft to engage and the other shaft to fail under high torque- its like breaking your chain and if you're standing up and really cranking, it could easily cause a crash.
  • 33 2
 "If Id asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse"... Henry Ford.
  • 15 2
 @pablo-b: Someday when I retire I'm going to start a YT channel to turn my data privacy stuff into more digestible content. Sorry you had to find it buried in a mountain biking forum.

The power-meter privacy stuff really came out because of the EU and GDPR. Power providers figured out they could install "smart meters" and that using AI, you could train powerful recognizers on power data to determine all sorts of things. Then the privacy watchdogs in the EU got ahold of it and a battle ensued. The compromise appears to be that high-resolution power timing is illegal in the EU. But here in the USA, it's a freaking gold mine. You cannot purchase a home solar system that doesn't transmit high resolution timing, and nobody's talking about it. Here are some links.

thehackernews.com/2012/01/smart-hacking-for-privacy-what-tv-shows.html
fahrplan.events.ccc.de/congress/2011/Fahrplan/events/4754.en.html
www.theregister.com/2012/01/09/smart_meter_privacy_oops
youtu.be/YYe4SwQn2GE
smartgrid.ieee.org/bulletins/july-2018/security-and-privacy-concerns-in-smart-metering-the-cyber-physical-aspect
academic.oup.com/idpl/article/1/2/121/664439

You'll notice that everything on this front is happening in Germany- they are almost always the canary in the coal mine when it comes to privacy, they had to live through the Stasi. Have a movie night and watch "the lives of others" if you'd like to understand why they're so touchy about data.

If you have a smart meter in the US, then your power operator (or anyone who can collect data from your power operator) knows all these things about you, going back forever.
  • 1 0
 @Mtmw: I heard about pi-hole over on slashdot the other day… any experience with something like that?
  • 5 1
 @somebody-else: I suspect you mean pi-hole (pi-hole.net) and it's a good first step, if you're a bit adept I would also recommend pfsense+ as your home router running pfblocker-ng
www.netgate.com/pfsense-plus-software
docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/packages/pfblocker.html

What are these things in layman's terms:
pfsense+ - basically the only home router gear with any attempt at security at all
pfblockerng - a constantly updated and very effective blackhole for most of the consumer-violating telemetry endpoints on the internet that blocks every device on your network from communicating with most commercial spying frameworks

If you don't want to hassle consider buying a netgate router and supporting the company that works on pfsense+. i declare no financial conflicts of interest with this company.

citation that basically no networking gear in the world except pfsense contains any security at all:
www.the-parallax.com/wi-fi-router-security-worse-citl-shmoocon
securityledger.com/2019/08/huge-survey-of-firmware-finds-no-security-gains-in-15-years
  • 2 0
 @Mtmw: Not so sure you are correct on home solar, maybe if you have a company install it. I know someone that has built their home solar grid and storage of power. They can go off grid if they want. I doubt they are internet connected on the solar part. May have to ask.
  • 4 1
 @gmoss: yes you can still build off grid solar if you DIY. I’m talking about installer-provided systems. Usually the internet required clause is in the warranty. Search the provider for the warranty terms pdf. I can dm you examples if you like
  • 2 0
 @toast2266: It will likely be like trying to buy a manual transmission car in the US these days. It can be done, but must be special ordered!
  • 1 0
 @Mtmw: could be the case. Would make more sense.
  • 15 1
 Ask heavier riders, and disengaging pawls aren't going to be on the list. We Clydesdales tend to prefer ratchets over pawls. Personally, I blew up several Hope 4 rear hubs before I finally went to DT Swiss ratchets - and I'm not looking back. I'll gladly sacrifice a wee bit of instant engagement for not having to walk my bike home after another hub shits the bed. The ratchet, incidentally, also ticks the user serviceable box you mention - you can take a DT Swiss 350 apart, clean it, grease it, and put it back together in about three minutes flat, without worrying about little pawls and tiny springs jumping all over your shop floor. I've ridden my bike chainless. Yes, the suspension is more supple. Yes, it feels nice. But frankly, the gain isn't worth introducing a bunch of complexity, cost, and risk of mid-ride failure. But I'm strictly a recreational rider, not a racer chasing 10ths for sponsorship and prize money.
  • 2 0
 @mkul7r4: just buy one now, the Taniwha rides great, suspension is excellent, Pinion drive works really well, I love mine!
  • 3 25
flag sanchofula (Jan 6, 2023 at 18:31) (Below Threshold)
 @Mtmw: dude, take a chill pill, this was a supremely verbose response that absolutely no one wants.

Funny how you’re telling someone they don’t matter, and then you post sone crazy monologue that screams “look at me”.

Well, I looked, what you wrote is garbage mansplanning at its finest, and your full of shite Wink
  • 2 0
 It’s all industries. The race to invent then solve problems then have marketers attempt to convince the masses of the need (1st tenant of marketing: there are no wants, only needs).
  • 3 1
 @mkul7r4: this

Derailers along massive cassettes and an imbalance of weight hanging off my rear wheel is the most archaic piece of kit left on my modern bike. Yeah they work well until they get mangeled via rock or root. surely, with the uptake in E-bikes manufacturers, have to be thinking about how to create a user friendly gearbox for mountain bikes.
  • 1 0
 @mkul7r4: but the zerode is already an awesome bike you should buy one now
  • 1 0
 @Prestwichs: Yup. Won’t but any suspension post that I can’t home service. That’s Fox out - go5 tired of sending them in for a service. 9point8 and Vecnum. Particularly impressed with Vecnum that I have used for over a year and it has been exceptional.
  • 1 1
 I’d like real time feedback on performance of both front and rear suspension on an app that I can then tweak on the trail. Not asking for professional level performance but good enough for Average Joe.
  • 1 0
 @mkul7r4:
  • 1 0
 Agreed 100%, however it will never happen as the bike and component companies are out to make money, zero incentive for them to resolve any of the issues you highlight as they all keep the revenue flowing.
  • 1 0
 @pablo-b: you received a folder from FB? When I deleted my account I just had a month to wait and that was it.
  • 3 1
 This kind of reminds me of the import vs domestic car debate in North America back in the 80's. All my mechanic relatives were complaining about how hard it was to work on imports vs domestic cars and reasoned why the domestics were superior. I just shook my head because I didn't care if it was harder to work on since they just didn't need to get worked on near as often. Although I do most of my bike work myself, I'd rather not have to work on it at all. So if they make a derailleur with a battery in it, but it's easier to adjust and requires no to little maintenance while performing better, I'm in.
  • 2 2
 @pablo-b: There's definitely some truths in the comment but also a bit of tinfoil hat stuff and half truths.
  • 2 0
 @rockandride6: bring on the exceptions. I'm not worried about e.g. Bike Yoke or DVO making money. Also, purchasing decisions can be product-specific rather than company-specific--I'll buy SRAM steel chainrings but not Wolftooth aluminum. Thanks for the sermon, tho
  • 3 0
 @rrolly: does having to charge it count as maintenance? I think it does; if you don't do it, it doesn't work.
  • 2 1
 @toast2266: It depends. Some systems draw such little power that charging is seldom needed.
  • 2 0
 yep. i was intrigued until i realized that it needed a battery
  • 6 2
 @Mattroth: the problem with gearboxes is that a 75kg rider on 175mm cranks pots more torque out than a Honda fireblade. Obviously at 90rpm, rather than 9,000, but the problem is that the gear teeth have to take that torque, so end up being a reasonable proportion of the size, weight and drag of a motorcycle gearbox (bike box will still be lighter, due to lack of torsional vibrations, number of cycles etc). On a motorbike, you don't notice the drag, as you have plenty of horsepower, and it's hardly like you feel the bike needing another snack bar as the fuel runs down. Could the rise of eebs accelerate gearbox development, as you wouldn't feel the drag or weight? Perhaps, but will they just be integrated with the motor? So no use to those of us who still want to use our legs?
  • 1 0
 @mountainsofsussex: Sooo you are saying there's a reason why gear drives are still just dreams and wishful thinking for being mainstream??
  • 2 0
 @rrolly: it depends? Like if you're using AXS or... AXS? Because AXS definitely needs to be charged more than "seldom."
  • 2 0
 @rickybobby18: yes or a way to keep your chain in place with out a clutch, as they do not totally work anyway?
from huck to flat, can see chain dragging on the ground & who wants that?
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: would you be happy with a 2 stage chain drive that was completely sealed, or would it just last too long?
  • 1 0
 @Mtmw: I had a bit of a Google about the TV stuff. I found a 2021 paper in Energies which seemed to suggest this was in a very early stage. Is it further advanced than they claim? From this, I would expect TV to be entirely web based first which would obviously negate the need to use smart meters. I'm also struggling to think of any nefarious ways this data could be used or is it just an example of how we are unaware of what data is being collected?
  • 1 0
 According to every comments section I ever read slacker gearboxes are both the keywords
  • 1 0
 @toast2266: Fair, but as tech increases is there not room for improvement on battery life? That's what I was digging at.
  • 2 0
 @rockandride6: that worked well til the EU reigned them in now bmw make you pay a monthly fee for your indicator stalks to work
  • 5 0
 I want a 125mm/125mm bike that weighs 10kg/22 lbs., without headset cable routing, for less than $10,000.
  • 3 0
 Don't you know, riders want short-term shareholder gains and new revenue growth streams. /s
  • 1 0
 @Dopepedaler: good luck with that one.
  • 2 0
 @ismellfish: or trails not sponsored by aforementioned entities!
  • 1 0
 Bike industry, if you're listening: I'd like a self-lubing chain please.
  • 1 0
 @shakabro: pretty sure a company did this a few years back
  • 1 0
 Taking the chain off easily solves all of these problems, ask Gwinn
  • 1 0
 @Baller7756: passenger cars have done wonders for the planet and the organisms that inhabit it
  • 5 0
 @hamncheez: Hi, I rode both Pinion and Rohloff for thousands of kilometres on my handbikes and despite I pedal with my hands with like one third of a leg power I do not feel any extra drag. It feels only a bit mushy. I will never go back to normal derailleurs Smile
  • 3 0
 @Mtmw: I dont know- some of the trails here get ridden a lot- the Bad thing is that most of the E-Bikers normally would not go into the woods with a non motorised MTB so trail manners are not to be found..

We sadly dont have a lot of legal trails in Austria (only usually fireroads are legal to ride on, nothing else beside legalised trails) so I dont know where this goes but I have a Bad feeling to be fair.

Also people overtaking hikers and mtbers with like 20kmh in boost mode on narrow sections is also commonly found here- too many Problems to solve.

Cant wait to See people with ABS on their bikes lol. Thats the only abs These beer belly-boys will ever have
  • 1 0
 @NotNamed: The thing I've noticed with a lot of e-bikers is they have no regard for people who have to physically work hard to get to the same location. It's not all of them of course, and to be fair, I can't even blame them.
What I mean to say is they cannot commiserate with anyone when so many of them don't understand the fatigue factor in such endeavors.
  • 1 0
 @mkul7r4: ive had my zerode for over a year now and im still loving it!!
  • 2 0
 @Mtmw: That's the new SRAM AXS model- pay to shift. $0.25 for the first 100 shifts. Or you can pay $10/month for unlimited shifts.
  • 3 0
 @Mtmw: cool to see this conversation on PB. If you want a geeky outline of what general ingredients are needed to create value out of your (or anyone's...) data:
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308521X21001943

Unfortunately it sits behind a paywall, but I'm allowed to give out copies personally. Just DM me.

It deals with the Agtech (as in: technology in agriculture) space, but they've been going through this 'digitalisation of analogue stuff' for 40 years, so the market's more mature. Same idea, and if words aren't your thing, then the graphic will still give you the idea about the ingredients that are needed.
  • 2 1
 @ceecee: Don't worry, we will survive until the planet and nature decide our fate. We don't have any input in the matter. In the meantime, ICE vehicles will have been just a steppingstone to what's next... but a necessary one.
  • 1 1
 @Mtmw: None of your links supports your contention that high resolution electric metering can tell viewers of that data what website is being viewed. They do speculate idly (zero proof) that it could be used to determine what movie is being watched based on the TV's consumption of electricity, but that seems like techies not understanding electricity, which is not an uncommon problem. Maybe that could be done if the TV was the sole source of electric consumption behind that meter? Doesn't seem like that would apply to many situations.

There are many good reasons for being wary of our tech overlords - there's no reason to get into the tinfoil hat stuff.
  • 2 0
 @Mtmw: keep posting. Like how you are making users aware. I am surprised with the up votes and appreciate people like you shining light on these subjects. It is important for us to remain vigilant on protecting our privacy. Large corporations found away to capitalize on us pheasants.
  • 1 0
 @Neloz: as a bike mechanic, home serviceable product puts far money into my pocket than products that aren’t. A) easy for my to service b) So many people greatly over estimate their level of handiness, resulting in me doing the work anyways. C) the people who truly are capable to service at home, are mostly doing it as it is anyways. The comment section of an enthusiast website of a niche of a niche sport computes to 1% of customers a bike shop sees.
  • 1 0
 @mkul7r4: Dude, the Pinion shifters actually work extremely well - and I'm the guy who hated GripShift. After a year of smashing, crashing, and tech gnar I'm pretty sure that a) I'll never ride a derailleur bike again and b) I'll stick with rotary after Pinion does levers.
  • 2 0
 @jmd07aa: Sorry to take so long to get back to this thread. Life gets in the way. The ability of high resolution voltage monitoring to do content recognition is established beyond doubt in the literature. If you're on a computer and you load a web page with auto-play video (hello pinkbike) then boom, they have web page recognition. When you are developing something incredibly dangerous and you don't want to be noticed, you give it a boring name - in this case the field you're looking for is "non intrusive load monitoring" and you want to search for intersections with "deep learning" and "recognizers".

www.researchgate.net/publication/355876161_Compromised_Through_Compression_Privacy_Implications_of_Smart_Meter_Traffic_Analysis
www.researchgate.net/publication/351109586_Identification_of_TV_Channel_Watching_from_Smart_Meter_Data_Using_Energy_Disaggregation_Channel_Watching_from_Smart_Meter_Data_Using_Energy_Disaggregation
www.researchgate.net/publication/348214095_On_the_non-intrusive_extraction_of_residents'_privacy-_and_security-sensitive_information_from_energy_smart_meters
www.researchgate.net/publication/346920827_On_the_Lack_of_Anonymity_of_Anonymized_Smart_Meter_Data_An_Empiric_Study
www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/blog/2021/06/02/privacy-compliance-for-smart-meter-infrastructure-with-microsoft-information-protection-and-azure-purview
archive.epic.org/privacy/smartgrid/smartgrid.html
epic.org/wp-content/uploads/privacy/smartgrid/smart_meter.pdf
ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/985144
ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9717384
www.researchgate.net/publication/338897258_A_Machine_Learning_Approach_for_Detecting_Unemployment_Using_the_Smart_Metering_Infrastructure
ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/7882676
  • 95 1
 All I want is my "analogue" factory X2 to work for more than 2 hours between rebuilds. Then we can start talking fancy
  • 12 2
 Go coil fam.
  • 12 3
 @quartermanz: when my x2 failed on the second ride, it was the damper. Not sure how a coil spring would help with that.
  • 12 1
 @thegoodflow: on a coil shock there isn't an air chamber surrounding the damper shaft seal head allowing air to be pushed into the damper/damping oil.
  • 3 3
 @nubbs: I didn't rebuild it (it was a warranty) but it wasn't an air ingestion issue. It was an actual mechanical failure.
  • 9 2
 I feel like I got the only good X2, been super reliable and great performance for the year I have had it.
  • 4 2
 @theconorcons: I think it's a little early to call it "super reliable" if you've only had it for a year
  • 5 0
 @thegoodflow: Oh I know thnx. I have been lucky enough to repair hundreds of x2s under warranty.
  • 7 0
 @theconorcons: another one here. Works flawlessly.
  • 4 4
 @nubbs: hundreds?? C'mon.
  • 52 1
 Yes! The people asked, and we received! More electronically controlled parts!
  • 44 0
 Unless this is controlled via headset-routed cables I'm not interested.
  • 6 1
 Yay! And for those that can't detect the sarcasm...actually no.
  • 10 0
 Maybe this system could be connected with Neuralink then the bike knows when your brain is like "oh shit!"
  • 1 0
 Here is an idea... when there will be a plethora of these sensors I think someone should come up with one large battery to power them all at once instead of small batteries all over the place. I even have an idea where it can be installed... in the frame Big Grin
  • 35 0
 in the topic of hub "slack" here at Tairin we are launching a hub that has a floating engagement index, which always resets when freewheeling, and its always 6 degrees from engagement (we've tested 8deg and 10deg as well) so instead of a engagement degree roulette from ratcheting hubs, you are guaranteed the same pedal "slack" Its also silent and uses ring gears (star ratchets) - no batteries on ours at least. www.instagram.com/reel/Cixy9CdPLLS
  • 12 2
 You're doing some of the best hub work in the industry. To be honest, I'm not sure I value those things more than the basics (weight, price, durability), but you're definitely offering one of the most interesting products on the market and I respect the pursuit of features other than points of engagement, colours, and proprietary spokes.
  • 2 0
 @R-M-R: thank you for your kind words!
  • 2 4
 Cue the chuds in the comments saying the freewheel needs to happen at the chainring, not the cassette for this to work
  • 2 1
 So it's an onyx, with play in it? /s
  • 1 0
 @vtracer: no it’s star ratchets
  • 5 0
 Wow this is actually a solution that makes sense. Great job finding the true "simple" (i'm sure the execution is hard) answer to the question of pedal kickback.
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: you're the only chud that said that
  • 1 0
 @thisisme: Or don’t fix it….. it only happens once in a while or when you are in the car park.
It will cost you $
Why try to “fix it” and make your bike more expensive?
  • 3 0
 Wait, I need a "coin" to take it apart? I've read of such things
  • 31 7
 You can complicate things six ways from sunday but the basic gist is that there is still an expensive, fragile derailleur hanging out in the wind.

PLEASE.

STOP.

FAFFING.

WITH.

DERAILLEURS!

If Sramano/Fox were to dump 1/100th of the R&D monies into gearboxes that they have into ders we'd be way, way past this nonsense already.
  • 10 1
 Do we *know* that they aren’t researching gearboxes?

I’d be willing to wager that they are and haven’t been able to overcome their pitfalls
  • 6 1
 @pmhobson: the main pitfall being nearly all bikes can accept derailleurs. Gearbox equipped bikes are few and far between.
  • 8 0
 I'd be happy with a derailleur in a box if not a gearbox. Totally sealed, oil lubricated, would last forever. Build the freehub into the casing and in total save considerable unsprung mass on the rear suspension. And there's the added bonus of cheaper and stronger rear wheels. Honda thought it was the way to go on their DH bikes.
  • 9 7
 I really don't see the point of a gear box. It's a heavy, expensive, draggy system you never have to replace vs a cheap, light, efficient derailleur you have to replace every so often. Doesn't seem worth the downsides unless you are extremely averse to maintenance.
  • 6 2
 @dthomp325: you've never tried one, obv.
  • 6 0
 I think gearboxes integrated with motors will be the next big step.
  • 4 1
 @kokofosho: main pitfall is drag
  • 2 2
 @BarneyStinson: yes, and with clutches and maybe connected to a throttle tube on the right handlebar......
  • 2 2
 @CarbonShmarbon: I have, they still don’t make any sense.
  • 2 0
 @Walrus666: funny that shimano bought honda's patent to stop any other designs like that?
  • 1 0
 @dthomp325: how about a derailuar in a box?
  • 6 0
 I agree with what you say except that in 30 years I've never had any major problems with derailleurs. I know they are in a vulnerable position and seem quite delicate so maybe I've just been lucky.
  • 2 0
 @kevinturner12: same, I don't really see derailleurs as being problematic
  • 1 0
 @kokofosho: along with other main pitfalls being drag, weight, range and lack of bikes built with them
  • 1 0
 @kokofosho:
  • 16 0
 Yea, another electronic gizmo that will decide it doesn't want to play nice miles from the trailhead in the dark...
  • 6 0
 Or if you miss a subscription payment!
  • 14 0
 Last year I went singlespeed on my park bike. Dj bike is singlespeed, only have gears on my trail/xc bike. For now. Wishing fox all the best with this patent.
  • 5 0
 We been single speed for 5 years or more on park bikes, it just works great with new one speed devices too.
  • 1 0
 @bat-fastard: what’s your favorite single speed device
  • 2 1
 @deez-nucks: www.sbonebikeparts.com/stuff/dh-chain-tensioner.html
  • 1 0
 just built a DH single-speed, don't think ill ever run gears on a DH again
  • 2 0
 can someone explain to me why you need gears on a park bike to begin with?
  • 4 0
 @vtracer: so as to make it comfortable to ride to the park and home again.
  • 2 2
 @vtracer: well if you want to get some pedals strokes in before hitting a gap, you need a heavy gear ratio. So it's gonna be quite hard to pedal around with that gearing
  • 1 0
 @kanioni: My darkcycles 34 front 12 back on a mini mullet, once your rolling it perfect for crank here or there when needed. Sons K9 is 32/12 on 27.5.
  • 3 0
 @vtracer: to go faster
  • 4 0
 I was always very anti singlespeed for my dh/park builds. However I was given a free SBone setup and gave it a shot just to shut my roomate up at the time who always raved about them. After that first day running it (thinking I would hate it) I never went back. Have been singlespeed 3 years now and have no intention or interest in ever going back to gears on my dh/fr/park bike builds. It’s 10x quieter, rear suspension works better, bike looks cleaner, and obviously way less maintenance. I have been able to sprint at jumps going 27mph (garmin research) and it feels just like pedaling a bmx on flat ground. Well worth investing in a SBone setup as the cheaper setups don’t function to well on big bikes.
  • 4 0
 Single speed and no dropper for 3 years. Never looked back. Under 13kg 170mm bike.
  • 1 0
 @jmcleod66: what’s your gearing and wheel size?
  • 2 0
 Going single speed was the biggest improvement I've ever made to my DH suss.... 5 bikes an only two have gears, the trail bike annthe zwift shed
  • 1 0
 @jackylegs: I ran DH without a chain for months at local lift. Why stop there, just remove chain altogether
  • 2 0
 singlespeeders are elitists of the bike world... here is another one... how do you know someone is running a signle speed? They will tell ya
  • 2 0
 @Rider656: you lucky to have a steep hill, we need a crank here n there for ours lol
  • 18 5
 "We always keep an eye out for patents that might reveal what the bike industry has in store for the years ahead"
Actually, it looks like y'all just keep an eye out for Patent Patrol articles on BikeRumor.
  • 2 0
 Or from Vital
  • 13 0
 Any efforts by the industry to further "optimize" or "complicate" derailleurs on high-end bikes as opposed to getting rid of derailleurs entirely should be responded to by severe and public beatings.
  • 11 0
 Looks totally reliable. Can't foresee any possible issues with this. *He said in a smart ass tone.
  • 14 0
 What's an "ass tone"?
  • 8 0
 @maestroman21: brown I would guess
  • 15 0
 @maestroman21: B flat.
  • 15 0
 F shart.
  • 10 0
 @maestroman21: Proper noun: Ass tone. 1) First name of American actor Ass Tone Kutcher. 2) British automobile manufacturer Ass Tone Martin.
  • 2 0
 @maestroman21: It's the opposite of ass flab. Some might call it buff butt.
  • 20 11
 Good on you PB to give credit to BikeRumour,
Did you guys ever run an apology to Wheel Based?
  • 9 0
 It would be cool if they could fix the float x2 before screwing up other new and exciting junk
  • 6 0
 An electric, hub-based decoupler thing that does what the OChain does, on demand. I fee like like it's violating the KISS principle more than the O-Chain. I guess now that hub standards have not changed in a few years, it's time to figure out how to screw those up again and sell more new wheels and hubs.
  • 3 1
 The thing is, it doesn't. No-one ever suffers from pedal kickback as your hub isn't engaged at anything but ridiculously slow speeds anyway. A disengaging hub leaves all the forces from chain slap, cassette momentum and mech clutch + spring through travel / slap. Spring loaded float at the crank( like O-chain, where the only force you feel is however light the spring is on the O-chain) or disengaging chainrings is what you want, because it actually gets rid of the forces you feel in reality.
  • 1 0
 @18bikes: The point is not to feel or not feel the pedal kickback. No one actually cares about the feeling in the pedal. It is just a word that describes the binding between suspension movement and anti-squat. The DH-racers using o-chain are only concerned with getting better suspension performance. And even though internet-maths shows that it does not exist, actual timing with a clock shows there is a difference in performance if you for instance put the chain in a grinded down gear at the cassette (or actual chainless riding).
  • 6 0
 Perfect! Make things more complicated for everyone! We all need pcms and tcms on our bikes. Proprietary diagnostic ports and software too, please! Suck the joy out of one of the last freedoms we have. If you spend anytime in the backcountry on or with any sort of gear needed for survival or transportation simple at the expense of comfort is always the way to go. Reliable, strong and lighter. These are the invitations we need.
  • 1 0
 Can I add: Home serviceable
  • 9 0
 I love tech and innovation, but there will come a point where I will go steel, single speed, and rigid, because fuck it all.
  • 3 0
 Came to say this exact thing...except.."titanium singlespeed"
  • 2 0
 @Dopepedaler: Yes
  • 2 0
 There's something to be said about the simplicity of a SS hardtail.
  • 2 0
 @hardtailparty: It's the wrong bike for all the right rides. Or, the right bike for the wrong rides.
  • 8 1
 every year that passes by, im more afraid that we are loosing the Sense & Magic of a Bicycle.
  • 5 0
 I forget where we are up to with battery numbers -

Tyre wiz x2
Flight attendant
Axs der
Axs dropper
Garmin
Smartphone

+ fox decouple now

Has you're new frame not got a solar panel that folds out of the in frame storage?
  • 5 0
 *puts on tin foil hat* "another step by big bike to make us susceptible to an emp"
  • 3 1
 Eventually with all the wireless capabilities the systems will all communicate with each other allowing optimal situations to take place automatically. Imagine your AXS shifter also turning off the clutch when shifting and then turning it back on. Then on a big impact, the flight attendant tells the clutch to shut off and disengages the pawls of the hub, but with a variable based on speed. Steering dampeners could be told to increase resistance as speed increases in the same way electronic power steering is controlled on cars and so on. All of which could have custom timing and speed ramping rates controlled via the app. Maybe the pawls in the hub also disengage entirely when the rider reaches a speed they can no longer pedal faster than anyway to eliminate drag. It's all very marginal gains and will require tons of r&d ($$$$) but it's interesting to think about if nothing else.
  • 7 0
 That sounds like an absolute reliability nightmare.
  • 2 0
 wouldn't you want the clutch to engage precisely at those super rough moments when you get tons of chain slap?

I just want these damn companies to offer a modular clutch that can be replaced easily AND adjusted when it inevitably loosens up.
  • 3 0
 You just described Shimano's current rear derailleurs. Not a lot of shops stock the clutch parts (N.B.: Shimano calls the clutch the "stablilzer") but they can be ordered. And not hard to adjust or service.
  • 1 0
 Service my shimano XT clutch every 6mth
  • 1 0
 I think this would be very easy to implement with a crank position sensor in the bottom bracket shell very similar to crank position sensors used in the automotive world. Hopefully instead of servomotor actuation they could use a more robust electromagnetic actuation to shift the pawls in the freehub. Aluminum isn't ferrous so the hub us a perfect place for electromagnet coils.
  • 3 0
 Next patent goes " a self riding bicycle that does all the pedalling, shifting and braking for you, all this while you watch the gopro from the comforts of you couch"
  • 5 0
 Can we just invent something that doesn't involve a derailleur please?
  • 3 0
 Headset gear shifting can certainly become a reality if that's your wish
  • 1 0
 I like the idea but would appreciate non battery powered solution.

I have the feeling bike companies are pushing us another battery powered gear only for one reason, when half of your bike is a battery you don't have to charge 6 separated.

How difficult it could be to make some juice by spinning the cranks?
Oh, wait a minute!
Remember those old dymano lights?

No dig no ride gets a new sense nowadays, it's just digging metals
  • 1 0
 Dynamos are still around. The good ones replace your front hub now (instead of rubbing against your tire).
  • 1 0
 @barp: I know, I just don't get that although there is a lot of energy going around as wheels spinning, suspension movement and chain slapping the producers are using batteries like caveman.
Could imagine a chain protector using chain slap power to produce and store energy, suspension movement could feed suspension sensors etc.

And of course simplified and light gearboxes
  • 1 0
 @barp: If it is just to retract the clutch, it shouldn't take (and store) too much energy. A dynamo front hub can power a 15W light I suppose so that's a good lot more than needed. Obviously it comes with heavy coils and magnets so regardless of how much power you need, you're going to add unsprung weight. The most power you can get for the weight is when using powerful magnets. These are typically neodymium magnets, which is a rare earth metal. This implies that it may not necessarily be rare, but it is found in few places. Notably China. The mining causes a lot of pollution yet the neodymium is in high demand for the production of other facilities that can produce sustainable energy (like wind energy, wave energy etc).

So yeah, whichever route you take with these electronics, it is going to demand scarce resources. Something to keep in mind with your decision making.

Plus, I think it is less important to save weight if you only add weight in the bb area (like when using the O'Chain system).
  • 1 0
 @vinay: AFAIK the power of a dynamo is typically more like 3 watts. Now how much power do all these fancy electronic components consume? I have no damn idea, and I don't intend to find out. The dynamo is the only electrical part on any of my bikes (the all-hours commuter).
  • 1 0
 @barp: Yeah, you're correct I was way off. I have them on two commuter bikes and I love them. Rather have your lights work every single time than mess with batteries. Because I'm caring for the commuter bikes of the rest of the family too, I always make sure both lights run off the dynamo. Back in the days a bottle dynamo could be inconsistent in the wet as it could slip hence the light could flicker. But now that most of these led-lights keep burning for a little longer after the wheel stops (as a standing light) it usually doesn't matter that much anymore and the lights keep burning consistently even if the dynamo slips every now and then. Sure hub dynamos are ideal but a bottle dynamo is still more convenient than batteries. They just got a bad name because people couldn't set them up properly. Plus the old ones came with glow bulbs which would often burn out even when the battery-powered ones already had led. And there used to be a single wire running from the dynamo and earth was just the bicycle frame. This was much less reliable.

Either way, this has little to do with the mess you'd get into with the electronic clutch system. I don't fancy my clutch being engaged or disengaged by something intelligent.
  • 2 0
 Remember those days when the hanger was the weak link to save your expensive derailleur? Why are hangers so thick and tough now and derailleurs so expensive? Surely that’s the wrong way around?
  • 1 0
 The really clever one would be to manufacture a hub that actually rolls its engagement ratchet back and forth as the suspension goes through its travel so you could run a high pivot bike with no idler, the rear mech would have to be able to cope with a big change in chain length and I'd have no idea how that would be made, hubs would start being proprietary to frames and such but it'd be a clever inovation
  • 1 0
 More inventions that make such a small difference that the average rider (read: the end consumer) isn't even going to notice. I get it might help the world's fastest racers to knock a tenth of a second off their times here and there. But the majority of people who ride and don't get their parts for free don't race. They ride for fun and the social aspect if they do group rides. So for the majority of riders, it's just another gimmick.
  • 3 0
 What drives the industry (and the economy) isn’t usually what people actually need…
  • 6 1
 GEARBOX PLEASE
  • 2 0
 I'd rather have a 2-speed internal front derailleur/gearbox gizmo where only one of the gears is non-direct drive, with a pre-wide-range-cassette rear derailleur.
  • 3 0
 @pipm1: You are aware of the Truvativ Hammerschmidt crank?
  • 2 0
 @pipm1: or the classified rear hub
  • 1 0
 @alanbonk : yep seen that one, it's pretty neat, but it needs a battery & looks expensive. but it would be nice to see this product do well.
@vinay : that was from 2009, looks like it didn't take off. A small internal derailleur, like a simplified 2-speed system similar to the Honda DH bike could surely be housed in a e-bike type block in the BB area.
  • 2 0
 @pipm1: I have never seen one for real but it was spec'd on quite a few bikes OEM so it can't have been too rare. I think just having 2-speeds in a Honda/PeteSpeed like system is a bit of a waste of such a housing, especially for those who don't need/want the pedal assist. I do think the Hammerschmidt system is cool actually. I think it would be best if it came with a bigger ring that were excentric with the bottom bracket (but higher). This way you still get to enjoy the bb clearance yet at the same time have a higher top part of the chain. How do I explain this without images? If you have a small ring concentric with the bottom bracket, if the bottom of it links to the bottom part of the big ring you have your light gear. If the top of the small bb-centric ring links to the top of the center of the big ring you've got your heavy gear. Things obviously need some support here and there, but I think this system could be much more simple than a planetary system (like Schlumpf or Hammerschmidt) or a derailleur in a box (which is what the Honda/PeteSpeed systems are). And rightly so, as it only replaces the relatively simple front mech.
  • 2 0
 I don't want a more capable bike. I want a bike that doesn't need a part or maintenance every time I ride the Fu(ker. Jeesh, F you guys lol
  • 2 0
 instead of duking it out for this gimmicky stupid crap for 3 racers it would be sick if the brands tried unique and creative things again
  • 2 0
 Wide range ten speed drivetrains that can get knocked without being useless, that go on modern freehubs like xd or microspline
  • 6 3
 Oh great another RaceFace hub that is doomed to fail.
  • 2 3
 Large compression hits to the suspension are not going to be affected by the clutch . But I'm certain small frequencies are . Ride your bike with out the chain . It happens when the chain breaks and you finish your dh run. The results . You will be amazed at how well your freed up suspension performs . Not a problem with transmission equipped bikes . As for clutch derailuers , they most certainly prevent the suspension from being fully active from the chain pulling the suspension back in . Replace the clutch with a rotating damper . The first ten degrees of rotation have no damping . Unfortunately this idea of a mechanical way of reducing chain pull is apparently too difficult for people to comprehend. I assume the electronic thingy is for when you get multiple large compression hits that do not allow the suspension to return completely. I doubt it would work .
  • 2 0
 I don't have any of the electronic stuff on my bikes, but I still think it's cool.
  • 3 0
 I can't wait for my rear derailleur to blow its seals.
  • 1 0
 The illustrations and descriptions above notwithstanding, someone is going to need to explain this to me over a beer at some point.
  • 1 0
 It's in my future if they can get this shit to work for 10 years without issue. Then I'll jump in. Good luck finding the fools that want to beta test this.
  • 2 0
 Just because you can draw it doesn't mean you can make it, or even more difficult, make it work and be reliable.
  • 2 0
 Battery in hub goes flat, paws fail to engage, teeth into stem/handlebar...
  • 3 0
 Now that’s an attack position!
  • 2 0
 Cool product but with absolutely zero technical support or service this product is going to flop.
  • 1 0
 Guaranteed if it even comes to market that electronically disengaging hub will have tons of issues with randomly becoming a fixed gear hub
  • 1 0
 I have an idea for something that will be automatic. Free when crousing and when there is kickback. And imidiate engage when pedaling.
Who can I contact for doing it?
  • 1 2
 Just stay standard sure you would want a win over this and maybe cheating accusations,hardtails down hill maybe look at that smack about shedding a dh track then tell me you need it
  • 1 1
 Let's get moving with hub tech, and be done with it. The only disadvantage I see is weight, and hopefully that's a minimal impact at the center of a rotating mass.
  • 1 0
 i feel like shimano is gonna buy fox and then it will be two similar megacorps
  • 1 0
 Let’s put a subscription to it and we can charge 9.99$USD / 45$CDN for unlimited updates and push notifications.
  • 1 0
 Wouldn't an electromagnet make sense for the hub engagement. There magnetically engaged pawls already.
  • 1 3
 ABS is coming in the next years and it's going to be a really good improvement for DH bikes. If the wheel does't lock up, then you are not going to have kickback and you don't need this rear hub. They are going to kill two birds with one stone.
  • 1 0
 Bike part manufacturers-
battery powered whizmos coming up!
Me-
Wha?
Everybody else-
Slow clap
  • 1 0
 Beyond stupid. The industry has run out of impactful ideas. Just ride your bike.
  • 2 0
 Technology without reliability is mute
  • 2 0
 It's 2023...Just get rid of bloody derailleurs already!
  • 1 0
 Properly designed suspension and chain routing wouldn't have any chain growth.
  • 1 0
 Once upon a time software bugs meant "my program crashed". Now they mean my bike/car crashed.
  • 1 0
 Fox getting into the drivetrain game?
  • 1 0
 Seems like a good way to apply an internally geared hub.
  • 1 0
 All I want is a new lightweight modern trail bike that is affordable.
  • 2 0
 choose 2
  • 3 0
 @joostd: 2 bikes?
  • 1 0
 Someone’s been thinking about Aaron Gwin and Leogang way too hard
  • 1 0
 Blah Blah Blah. Where is Jesse Melamed landing? Still on fox?
  • 1 0
 So this is where we go, once we've outBOOSTed everything, huh?
  • 1 0
 I just want better clutches.
  • 2 0
 Shimano. Adjustable and serviceable. Done
  • 1 0
 Does it come with over-the-air update?
  • 1 0
 Lost me at ‘electronic’. Get on with gearboxes…
  • 1 0
 An oChain seems a lot more simple solution to pedal kickback…
  • 1 0
 more things for me to break :]
  • 1 0
 How sensitive does rear suspension need to be? Specially at WC DH Speeds.
  • 1 0
 Meh, I'm still waiting on wireless chains
  • 1 0
 Now all the high pivot bikes make sense.
  • 1 0
 edited
  • 1 1
 Just mount a Rohloff
  • 2 0
 Do you know what those things weigh?
  • 2 0
 @barp: and in exactly the wrong place for suspension performance...
  • 1 0
 @BarneyStinson: Yep.

To answer my own question, just a bit under 4 pounds (1.8 kg). For the hub alone (no cables or shifter or rest of the wheel).
Below threshold threads are hidden







Copyright © 2000 - 2024. Pinkbike.com. All rights reserved.
dv42 0.080415
Mobile Version of Website