Men's Category of Slopestyle Will Not Proceed - Crankworx Rotorua 2024 [Updated with FMBA Statement]

 @lumpy873: “squeeze more money out of the organizers” ? Sorry I thought we were talking about a mountain bike event

 There’s no way for us to know if redbull should be paying more or the riders are being unreasonable without knowing more of the financials. How’s the revenue split? What are the operating costs?
I love slopestyle and the riders, I wish the negotiations were handled a little sooner though.

 @hohmskullkrishten: Pretty dumb take. Slopestyle is the reason Crankworx took off to begin with. It's the main event drawing viewership worldwide, the event that the most spectators turn up to watch. It certainly does count towards the overall points ranking, the riders just typically don't race the other disciplines because Slopestyle requires so much focus and practice many of them aren't willing to give up.
This is why the riders are asking to be compensated more fairly. They are the show.

 @heavyp: I'm mean, that's what a labor strike/walk out is. Making short-term sacrifices so that the future can be better even/especially for the next generation of riders.

 @MountainLive2: That last sentence, could you do that? Thank you.

 @chrismac70: its not about price money, as much as the orginisers want to make it about. it's about accommodation and travel fees. to cover that is not the job of the sponsors. While the emils and eriks will get this paid for by the sponsors, many others will not.

Hence many sponsors only care about social media anyway nowadays. For them it's more beneficial if you just stay at home and produce viral insta clips. If so though we as viewers wouldn't have this competition to watch. If I remember correctly last year or so the riders even chipped in for a Spanish rider to be able to compete. While I do see the argument that cwx will be afraid that dh racers and other competitors will potentially demand the same. We must not forget that cwx is for the slopestyle riders what the UCI WC is for the racers. Hence why plenty of racers are expressing solidarity on social media right now.

Imho asking for accommodation and travel fee isn't much compared to the ammount of viewers this broadcast reaches. We as community als need to start to abandon the thought (or If I do say so excuse) that we are only a niche sport anymore. MTB as a hobby is a very much growing sport that is gathering a lot of new fans rather quickly. Yes we might not be as popular as football, basketball or similar, but we are also a different target group. Hobby devices aka bikes are not cheap, holiday trips with bikes are not cheap, equipment has a price etc. Yet we all pay at least some of it out of joy. This means we are a highly profitable target group, were audience targeting and marketing value is equivalently higher than in sports with a different target group.

The request of riders to get some money from this cake is only fair. Their main income should thereby, as many here have correctly pointed out here, be their sponsors. However the requested attendance fee and accommodation in question here is nothing that is going to get any of these riders rich. I can imagine the top end will probably not even care. I also believe that without these incentives the trip to these competitions will for many of the riders at the back end of the pack not be sustainable. One can also add that the organizers also get sponsorship money. Yes they need to pay themselves and their staff as well, but they should also look out for their talent (riders) and to open a path for the next generation that will definitely not have the sponsor backing in the beginning of their careers.

As some people from the industry have pointed out (below this post or beneath pinkbikes insta posts), the money within the industry is definitely there. It's about time that the riders start making their voices heard in regards to how unsustainable the situation currently is. It's a bummer that plenty of people putting the blame on the riders here for ruining the show. I personally hate that it seems like it was an unnegotiable demand by the riders, but it could be that we are missing some viewpoints here. None the less I believe they have not made themselves friends with that wording nor the non transparency regarding this possibility. It could be that its due to a loose connection of mates making these claims instead of a professional union, but by now its just second guessing. I'm pretty sure though that this isn't the first time this has been spoken about

However the riders demands don't seem to outrageous to me personally. I believe we should rather blame the industry for neglecting their talents, not handing out appropriate pay etc. than jumping on the riders as of now. I believe there were plenty of ways to not let it come this far. E.g. I can imagine emil being fine with the 25k being scrapped of the triple crown price money co cover parts the costs, or the overall price money being reduced but therefore accommodation and travel fees being payed. It's very unfortunate that now we all have to pay the price for it by missing out on the competition.

Cheers for the read, sorry for wasting your time reading my gibberish...

edit: spelling

 @heavyp: they’re looking at a short term loss for a long term gain.

 @hohmskullkrishten: "Destroying UCI Downhill racing"? You know Hardline and Crankworx are UCI sanctioned, right?

 Personally I can't wait to see Nikki Rogatkin and Erica Fedko slay it in the women's comp!

 @heavyp: You're doing a lot of assuming on there income in a sport that you said is tiny in comparison to others. Here's my assumption...Guaranteed half those guys barely make a livable wage. I would have done it for pennies on dollar to get that opportunity back in the day. But, Invites should include travel and basic lodging and at least a meal or 2 a day.

 @chrismac70: ...actually prize money would be considered income if you get some, so yeah it's a source of revenue for the athletes. The tax man doesn't care about feelings and opinions.

 @chrismac70:

 @trillot: if the women are getting things that the men weren't like the appearance fees, I can understand why they would be wanting more... Hopefully some more details come out in regards to this..

 Never bunnyhop a picket line

 @hohmskullkrishten: yep, I know that Redbull is a private organization. I was just implying that all of the arguments playing out in the comment section are moot because for all we know crankworx may not even be profitable to begin with.
As for your opinions on slopestyle, cool, don’t watch it. I don’t watch xc, so I also don’t open articles about xc athletes and say that I don’t respect the sport and it should end. Maybe I don’t have as much free time as you though.

 @CustardCountry: yup

 @trillot: please go read this article again, with the slopestyle riders perspective as well. Then let me ensure you that not everyone in the top 10 is getting this from their sponsors. Hence re read my comment as to why.
If you only participate the once on your continent. cwx has no business calling this the world class diamond event. And we all have no interest in watching it.

Don't trust me as I don't have any credibility with my pinkbike account? Go to the pinkbike Instagram post from the press conference and read Kade edwards comment on all this.

Allow me to quote him:
"@crankworx have been taking the piss out of you lot for years. It’s time to stand up and you did.I can’t believe the shit show this has turned into. We know what they get out of you lot. It’s a show at the end of the day. So all I can say is that i am beyond proud of every single one of you. Hopefully they see how valuable you boys are to the sport and give you what you need and deserve. The girls shouldn’t drop in my eyes too.. but it’s new and exiting so I also get that… end of the day you go and risk your life for @crankworx benefit. So where is your benefit? Sort it out @crankworx … maybe don’t turn off your comments too and be cowards.. shits gunna get said either way…. Anyways that’s what I got to say❤️(also don’t come hit me with your opinions people… you don’t know half enough to comment on these situations.. you’re not athletes in this industry… I don’t want to hear your bullshit opinions)"

Now go tell him you know better.

 @Brestling: The only thing I would say in regards to Kade's statement is I question if the riders know the true financials on the events..I suspect, much like us here, they don't know the true numbers on what the organizers take in vs what they have to payout.. To put it on a smaller scale, this is something I would see in my BMX racing days.. The average person only see the $10 per rider coming in and thinks it is easy money. They don't see the rent the track pays for the land, the money the sanction gets paid, the money paid for trophies, the utilities, etc... Not to mention a lot of time just maintaining the track..

It's not always crystal clear...

 @chrismac70: but it looks like they're paying to be there out of their own pocket. Flights and accommodation will really hurt the bank, especially for new upcoming riders without sponsorship/that level of sponsorship whixh ia their point. They're not trying to cancel Crankworx, they're just making the point that if they make one of the main events there they should be listened to more and actually taken more care of than what they are.

 @lumpy873: I totally agree with that, there is more to it and we will have to see how it plays out. Is still think kade might be a bit closer to the organizers than we might be, but It's once again just second guessing until we know more.

I would like to add however, just like the slope riders didn't do themselves a favor with the wording of the request and no communication with the public that this might be on the table, the organizers haven't done themselves a favor either, by trying to frame the situation like this was all about the money for the slopestyle riders.

 @TimJohnSmith: But isn't that the case with most professional sports? I might be a good enough golfer to play in the Masters, but unless I make it to Sunday, I'm not getting paid. I might be a great marathon runner, but unless I'm in the top 10 of 28000 people, I'm not getting paid. Might be a world record weightlifter, but up until a couple of years ago, there wasn't any prize money. And regardless, the PGA is not paying for my travel or accommodations. The Boston Marathon is not paying for my food or accommodations. The IWF is not paying me to show up, to travel or for a hotel. It's the same with skiing and snowboarding. The FIS just has a World Cup half pipe comp in Calgary and they gave some info on what hotels are offering some discounts, but the FIS isn't paying people to show up, let alone pay for travel and accommodations.

Most professional athletes in most (individual) sports have to figure out their own travel and accommodations if their sponsors aren't paying for it. This is especially the case for smaller and less mainstream sports.

I think the athletes need to decide if they want to be professional, competitive athletes who compete for prize money, or I they want to get paid to put on a show, like Nitro Circus.

I absolutely agree that prize money should be increased and athlete safety is important, but disagree with appearance fees, accommodations and travel expenses.

 @Brestling: I agree with you on that.. I almost feel like if it's true that the women did get some of what the guys are asking for, they didn't want to say it to either A) they didn't want to throw the women under the bus or B) mention it and risk losing that for everyone..

 @Brestling: that’s still for riders to agree with their sponsors. It’s not upto the organisers to fund their travel. If sponsors don’t want to fund it then clearly they don’t see the value of them being there

 @MikeGruhler: true. What meant is that if your relying on it to make a viable living then your not earning enough from sponsors

 @TimJohnSmith: then they need to have a word with their sponsors and put a proposal together that governs them the funding to be there. If the sponsors don’t want to fund it then clearly they aren’t bothered about them being there

 @Brestling: let’s hope that they aren’t in breach of contract with sponsors for this stunt. If competing is part of your agreement then you could be in real trouble

 @commental: Are you sure about that?

UCI has its DH series and Pump track series.. I'm sure it's not a coincidence that as soon as Redbull was no longer the UCI broadcast partner extra Hardline events were added..

 @jsnfschr: they all have the choice to get a real job if they want. Plumbers make decent coin. Not that fun of a life, but it’s a choice that slopestyle athletes have to make just like everyone else.
No one owes you a living.

On th flip, if you think you’re getting f*cked then you’re absolutely right to strike.

See how it plays out I guess. We’ll see what their value is soon enough.

 @kleinblake: Really? I thought we were talking about a basic commercial agreement and subsequent entry on declared terms with the event organiser who has significant capital at risk with very low % margin, and then commercial parties to the terms of the agreement at last moment and about to go live/production refusing services and agreement as pert the terms.

Damages claim incoming. Rightfully so.

 @masters5: womp womp go back to your hedge fund

 @Brestling: Sorry, the event organiser in writing agreed to these provisions over and above the agreed entry terms, to which these athletes entered and commercially signed up to?

These athletes are about to find out how competitive riding your bike around the world, media, profile and fame is.

They also use the false assertion "in real world jobs/other sports/comparable blah".

In these other comparisons, these parties who agree to commercial agreement and appearance are subject to damaged clauses - if you take this job, agree to enter and appear, and are part of our named event you will sign this damages clause whereby if you willfully withdraw your appearance or competition, there are significant penalties which is going to happen for every event these guys now enter to.

Who wants to take so much on to hose an event to demonstrate, give airtime, and put so much at-risk capital on the line with counterparties that do this to you as the event goes live.

Damages claims incoming, rightfully so.

 @MikeGruhler: If thats the agreed terms up front and signed to, yes. Retrospective negotiation and withdrawal of participation after agreeing clear terms and commitments sees damages claims.

These guys are about to find out at mixed MTB events if the Slopestyle is not there and present in the amphitheater, the crowds wont walk up the hill to watch it, but the DH course top to bottom will be lined several deep.

 @kleinblake: Make MTB serious and get rid of false drama. It will make the events more investable, and thus the athletes benefit as a greater pool.

 @lumpy873: Hardline has Cat3 UCI status, at least it did last time I looked. I think RB got UCI sanctioning as the rules state that theoretically the UCI could remove a rider's race licence for attending a non sanctioned event (unless anything has changed) although to my knowledge they've never implemented that rule..

 @commental: interesting...

 @commental: I just took a look.. Looks like Crankworx shows up on the UCL calendar, but I didn't see Hardline on there...

 @TimJohnSmith: I thought this was an invitation elite only race in which case they are sponsored or not giving sponsors what they want

 @lumpy873: Almost sounds right - given how equal it has been for female athletes compared to male athletes so far...
I'm assuming the appearance fees for the females are needed to get them there as their salaries and sponsorship deals are generally far lower than their male equivalents, so they just couldn't make it (or only 1 or 2 could) - I suspect the organisers are trying to get more female coverage to be less male dominated.
I don't get appearance fees for male athletes - if you are good enough to be there, then you shouldn't be getting paid for the privilege. Privilege is earned from the countless hours of practice...as that is what is needed to be the best. As you get good, sponsorship comes along and should support progression to the top, if it doesn't then it doesn't sound much like sponsorship and more like an advertising banner - which isn't good.

 @masters5: I could see that being the case if the riders were being paid to turn up and perform, but isn't the whole point that the riders are the ones paying to turn up? I can't see any damages claims being levelled at the riders... What are the organisers going to say? "You paid us to let you compete and then didn't, so give us more money?"
I think you have this back to front.

 @teebeeess: Bringing the event into disrepute, collective actions and damages for forcing event cancellation......

 @ShoodNoBetter: I can understand the organizers paying to get the women there, if not I'd guess the field would be 2-3 riders.. But, the men also have similar expenses to get there. Not all of them have sponsors to cover the travel. If you are paying out of pocket to get there and someone else is getting a trip paid by the organizers, you aren't going to be happy..

 @lumpy873: that is how this all works though...you get better and you get more...given the imbalance in the world of sports, everything that can be done to get more female athletes should be absolutely encouraged. However, it isn't the same for males and it shouldn't be...

 @lumpy873: www.uci.org/calendar/mtb/1voMyukVGR4iZMhMlDfRv0?discipline=MTB&searchTerm=hard

It's listed here.

 @commental: I guess I didn't search deep enough...

 @masters5: and then what?
Think about this year's competition as a whole for a minute. How many big name international riders made the trip out to NZ to compete? How many world cup riders raced the downhill? How many in the dual slalom? Let's face facts here..... this year's event was already a bit of a fizzer. By far the biggest international field of top talent was the men's slopestyle, and they apparently did not feel that there was enough incentive for them to take the risk. So let's say you are right and Crankworx takes them to court for bring the event into disrepute. How does that incentivise the same field of top athletes to keep paying for the privilege of turning up at further Crankworx events? How long will the Rotorua event last if the main draw cards are being dragged through the courts? If the organisers want to risk chasing away the only people who make it a real spectacle then cool, but personally I can't see it happening.

 @Joyrode: drawing in viewership worldwide .
Your having an absolute laugh aren't you. Do you have any idea how small, that viewership is .
Worldwide figures for crankworks as a whole didn't even make a million ....that's every single venue event combined
Because they event is put on the locals will, turn up.
Theh put a duck race on in most Towns people ill show up its just what we do .
The money going out to put this event on is way above what ig brings in
It's likely then organisers will call there bluff and throw in the towel

 @jsnfschr: while it’s agreed that that’s how a lot of these things work, it makes for a thinner (and arguably more boring) field of competitors of only those with the backing of large corporations or their rich parents are able to actually make it to matches or compete regularly. This was actually, from my admittedly limited understanding of things (I’m not a golfer), a major reason for LIV golf’s success in competing with the PGA tour. The lesser known names were interested as they received money for simply being good enough to enter and compete, which was a considerable draw, given that the only other way to make money, if you weren’t a sponsored big name, was to take a top spot

 @vtechsaz: When the people that tune in to watch these events are based all over the world, thats worldwide right?
The slopestyle is the event that pulls in the most viewership, draws the local families out to watch and builds the most excitement. Without the slopestyle event Crankworx would drop off in an instant. Most regualr people/non mountain bike fans want to watch people doing tricks and jumps. It's the draw card.

 I call next drop

 @pmhobson, @Brestling: Bingo, it's about the power of collective action, and this is a historic moment for MTB as a sport, which up 'till now has never managed to have an entire starting field unanimously refuse to provide a spectacle until sustainable, safe, & fair conditions are provided by those profiting from the spectacle. How did major-league stick & ball sports come to have such huge salaries? The players joined together for collective bargaining agreements. No top players, no top game. The majority of the posts above are fixated on what other sports are most analogous to MTB, but seem to miss the single most crucial parallel: Rogatkin & his unified field of Slopestyle riders have entered the arena of big-league *collective bargaining* that has elevated wages for every other sport whose athletes have employed the strategy. Will slope riders suddenly be earning NBA or F1 money? No, but they will be in a position to command a bigger piece of the pie that organizers & broadcasters have been keeping for themselves.

 @powturn: What money? I'm sure there's some, but I doubt there is as much as people think. Some money from sponsors and people attending in person, but as of right now, it's a free broadcast online. Even if they get a million people watching online, how does that translate to more money to riders?

Big sports have big salaries because there is revenue from venues, merchandise, licensing and broadcasting. And millions and millions of fans/viewers every week. Not four events per year.

 @Brestling: I’m not sure I would take kades view of how the crankworx business works

 @panthermodern: welcome to professional sport. That’s how it always has been and always will be

 @jsnfschr: Riders are asking for what they need to sustain professional careers in the sport, and it's not just money. Recognition of their value on a human & professional level in form of having a say on course conditions, wind, and start times is a central part of their collective stance. Their further demands are pretty modest in the grand scheme of things: appearance fees to cover travel, a modest increase in prize money, and basic hospitality in the form of catering. We're talking five to low six figures per event here. Will Crankworx & FMB open the books to give the riders an honest look at how big the pie truly is? The riders will never get a chance if they don't ask. Asking as a unified block *is the entire point,* not the exact number of zeros behind the dollar sign. The modest, 5-figure minimum salaries for ProTour cyclists are hardly "big money" by any standard, but they exist because road riders have unionized and the CPA negotiates to assure them a living wage. Slope riders aren't even aiming that high yet, but one thing is certain: they'll never get more out of those who organize and market their performances if they do not ask.

 @chrismac70: Quick, call the NBPA and call them to tell them Lebron's income is in jeopardy! There will be no more income if he is part of a collective bargaining agreement!

 What would happen if a non-NZ citizen got sued for damages in New Zealand and lost?
Is there anything the Nz courts can do to make them pay? I suspect not. They’d just have to avoid travelling to New Zealand again I think.

 @powturn: I agree with the concept of what you’ve said about collective bargaining. Not sure how much money is in slopestyle though. I can’t see it being a lot. Bums in seats, TV money and clothing sales are what drive the dollars up. Does one even have to pay to watch Crankworx, and if so how many people actually spectate? Does RB pay the organisers for the broadcast rights.
If I had to guess there is not much to go around.

 @Joyrode: so if the slopestyle riders are the big draw, why aren't they negotiating better sponsorship deals for themselves? If they're the big draw for broadcast, free to air views, fan (paid or unpaid) attendance on site, that's a lot of eyeballs, so they should be leveraging that better in terms of building up athlete image/value and pitching sponsorship deals. Maybe this is another indication that we really do need more agents in MTB to help athletes, just as in every other sport.

 @chrismac70: I don't think the riders are under contract with Crankworx.. If they were, the items they are wanting would be addressed in the contract.. Now, I'm fairly sure that some contracts that riders have with sponsors will address which contests the riders are expected to be at.

 @lumpy873: by entering the event you form a contract between entrant and organisation. What that contract says is anyone’s guess

 @powturn: Honestly, if I was the Crankworx crew, I would be opening up the books and show them what the bottom line is... Here's what we have coming in with our contracts and here's our expenses... I think there would be some surprised people..

 @jsnfschr: That's what I've been thinking about. We all get to watch and enjoy the redbull events for free, and seek ways around paying for the world cup races. They aren't making any money from the broad cast, so the only way Redbull brings in money is through the event sponsors, like Sram or Toyota. I have no idea how much money there is after all the other costs for hosting an event like this is covered, but I can't imagine it would be that much, relatively speaking, and they already offered the 37% increase in prize money. This is setting aside the consultation on course design and safety that the riders are asking for, which is absolutely fair for them to have. My real question is, what are these riders sponsors paying them? At the end of the day, being a sponsored athlete is having a marketing job, and the company sponsoring you should be paying you. Events and contests are only part of that job, you need to be making advertisements, filming video parts, being an ambassador for the company. I'm not sure that Redbull or other event coordinators are the people that the riders should be having these talks with, but maybe they should unionize, and then negotiate with the brands that sponsor them for minimum salaries and medical coverage that they feel are appropriate.

 @MountainLive2: can ride just fine..just not doing spins and flips..Doesn't mean you can't ride just because you're not doing that shit.. I'll take a Wyn Masters, follow cam Friday or a Kendall-Weed edit any day of the week before I tune into a slope style contest..But to each their own.

 @lumpy873: absolutely, there are probably a lot of factors that the riders don't know.

 @chrismac70: probably the closest there is to a contract upon entering a contest like that is a release of liability and maybe permission to use the riders image and likeness..

 @powturn: you're spot on. We will have to see how it pans out, but this is a massive step towards fair pay for these athletes. Many people here in this comment section seem to think the riders want to make a fortune or that the event will go broke. As sad previously, I have no insights into that, but I doubt an event will just fold, if there is money to be made off. And it's certainly not to shaby even with the current state of the industry as well.

We all here are just second guessing since all, if not most of us are not within the private circles the details get discussed at. As some people here have pointed out, like @masters5 @chrismac70 their will certainly be actions that could be taken, but I doubt that this will actually happen as this will shine a light on how cwx will take care of their talents needs going further. I highly doubt that these actions will be taken, rather believe that this will actually start another round of negotiations. After all, the riders could've just ridden 0 score runs for all of them on the broadcast and fulfilled their terms if such a threat would've been on the table.

I don't know the people in charge, but juding by the actions NOT taken and the waves this has produced so far, I highly doubt this situation will be taken lightly. Judging by the takes some people have written about Dave? the founder of cwx if i'm not mistaken here, has his hart at the right place for the sport. He himself will be devastated about this entire situation I believe. And he certainly does not want cwx to go tits up over such a situation. They are all smart people and now have gotten a reality check on how far they can go with their talents. Whatever happens will be in their hands, and I'm sure they will have great talks and come up with a solution to this mess.

 @ShoodNoBetter: you assumed wrong - no appearance fees are paid at CWX. Slope athletes historically get a room. WSL, UCI, PGA etc - none pay appearance fees. Only exhibition events - like Nitro Circus have appearance fees. Maybe the athletes need to find a soulless group of Saudi's to start a LIV MTB tour.

 @eae903: Redbull doesn't own or run the CWX events. A Local non profit organization tied to the community take all the risk for CWX rotorua. Massive commitments of funding are made by the community and huge volunteerism goes to make it happen. A lot of disrespect has been shown by the riders on this one to those who work tirelessly to create this event. The athletes knew the landscape clearly before the arrived and pulled a stunt that is biting the hand that feeds them.

 @mdtsports: This. This should be packaged and sent to the Riders.

 @mdtsports: Thank you for clarifying that for me. I would still assume that Redbull fronts a lot of money to cover costs as a title sponsor, even if it isnt run by them. That doesn't mean that there is a surplus of money, there is still a lot of work to do and a lot of people to be paid before the riders even get there, which I feel supports my thought that the riders probably need to take issues of pay up with their own sponsors, not CWX themselves. We all want to be able to watch these contests and the riders to get appropriate pay and medical coverage given the risks they take. Would you happen to know if non contest events like Darkfest, or Freeride Fiesta pay riders appearance fees since they are exhibitions?

 Is Redbull a title sponsor of the Crankworx series? Watching the coverage i didn't see much as far as Redbull signage...

 @teebeeess: Then the event can be cancelled and not bother.

 @mdtsports: I don't think I said appearance fees were paid...although someone mentioned that the females were getting an appearance fee - I did say everything that can be done to encourage females is a good thing...I'd hope onc ethe numbers were there, then appearance fees wouldn;'t be needed as the competition would be there to make it enticing enough.
Many have suggested this isn't really competition though and is more a show of style...so competition itself may not be the right word for this.

 @jsnfschr: The big difference here is I question how much value crankworx brings riders that they can't get themselves.

This sport is very YouTube friendly. Beyond the course layout what does crankworx bring to the table for these guys? For the cost of travel they could throw together a cool Edit that likely nets far more exposure and then the rider controls the risk, revenue and audience.

It's not about crankworx making or not making money (I'm sure they get plenty out of it even if the balance sheets don't show it). It's about the riders saying you need us more than we need you.

 @lumpy873: I would assume so, since they do all the broad casting for all of them, I thought they were part of the redbull signature series, but now that I think of it that might just be the slope style at CWX Whistler

 @jsnfschr: I think PGA is a bad example, if you're on the tour as exempt you apparently get $500K/yr. Lower ranked players receive $5,000 in expenses when they miss a cut.
www.golfmonthly.com/features/do-pga-tour-players-earn-a-salary

I don't think it's unreasonable for people that qualify for the event get basic expenses covered. There are what, 16 people in that picture above? Even at $5k per that's $80k. I think they can find that money, or at least reimburse them for flights and offer a bunkhouse or hotel room. We're not talking about the thousands that show up for a marathon.

 @mattpi: PGA is a bad example and I acknowledged that somewhere else in the comments. The PGA also has ALL the money to throw at people. I imagine the revenue they generate from massive sponsorship deals, nearly weekly broadcast coverage and merchandising is insane. Crankworx doesn't have any of that (or a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction if there is anything).

As far as I know, athletes don't have a contact to perform at Crankworx. They're offered an opportunity to compete. If any athletes have contracts, it should be with their sponsors. If they don't have sponsors, work hard during the off season so you can travel and chase your dream, just like every other privateer in mtb (dh, enduro, xc, etc). It's not Crankworx responsibility to ensure you're making a living competing in their event.

 @lumpy873: they won’t do this because it will show how they spend more than the $30,000 the riders are asking for on banners and snacks for the event. Or other superfluous crap that is less necessary but more corporate than what they should be spending on. If they shifted that money to the riders they would magically have the money for that signage and banners again the next year. Money appears magically in budgets when the organizers want it. Have you ever seen them put on a show sans any of that? Nope. But every single show they have put on has been missing basic stipends for their riders INCLUDING the women who rode this weekend.

 @s100: but.... Crankworx does needs that branding to create the look they need to be a showpiece event. If you took the Crankworx Taniwha DH for example. In early Feb a national series DH was run on same track (very similar line), with similar track prep and logistics, and many of the same riders. However the Crankworx version is perceived as the much more "impressive" event to general public, because of the branding, signage, marketing and set-up of the event. Even though the quality of track and athletes was largely the same.

 @Cabin: Crankworx does needs that riders to create the look they need to be a showpiece event. If you took the blah blah blah for example. It would look mighty silly to have all those banners and tents and no riders on the trails!!


It's all priorities my man.

 @s100: yeah. I didn't say anything about the riders/athletes. Simply stating the signage, branding, presentation is important. Because to the general public (who is the market for the NZ edition of CWX), even if you have top riders, without the presentation, it looks like a very low key, unimportant event.

So for CWX to be CWX as its pitched... it needs both

 Fully agree with this. The time and effort they have to go though to even make it to diamond level events is insane. Everyone that takes to the course at a diamond level event is an amazing rider and they should all get recognised by some form of payment instead of just the ones on the podium.

 @jsnfschr: that's not true... many professional leagues have set up their minim salary if you are part of it

 @PauRexs: the bigger the overall sport revenue the more the mid to low level elite players get paid. mtb is a niche sport that unfortunately will never payout against the perceived risk.

 @jsnfschr: tennis - first round competitors get £55k for completing a match at Wimbledon if they lose

 @jsnfschr: pretty sure team sports athletes get paid without having to win, just do their job. How is this different?

 @luke7below: I guess you can do that when there is £45 million in prize money to throw around. Obviously that's not an option in slopestyle. Outside of races like Tour de France, the money isn't there in cycling. Individual races such as Paris Roubaix (which has been around for 120 years), only has a total of £90k total prize money (£30k for the winner, down to £500 for 20th). And guaranteed more people are watching Paris Roubaix than Crankworx.

 @hot-beef-sundae: they get paid by being sponsored. Same in all other forms of racing.

You don't get paid by hoe hard you work, you get paid by how hard are you to replace

 @luke7below: @luke7below: The prize for winning Wimbledon is £2.35M, and if I remember right a single Crankworx event was $25k. So with those proportions and the 37% increase that's ~$800. That would be a pretty underwhelming proposal for an appearance fee.

 @jsnfschr: show up money was very much a real thing in Arenacross in the early 2000s

 @sharpiemtb: this isn't racing, it's expression

 * niche sport

 They are. They are paid by their sponsors. If they carry on like this then their sponsors will wonder why they bother

 @Fmxexo: @luke7below:

The way I read the statement seems to be that the organisers are saying this event is the world championships for slopestyle? If that is the case then as far as I'm aware it's not standard practice to get an appearance fee for a world championships in any sport?

I only really know about triathlon, ironman in particular as I'm competing to qualify for world champs for that, and for that you do not get an appearance fee for the world champs. You get prizes for winning, pros have sponsors who pay them and will probably provide bonuses, but there is no appearance fee. I've got a few friends who have done it and don't get a fee. Same with Olympic triathlon and standard distance euro/world champs, I've got a few friends who raced them for team GB and didn't get an appearance fee. Wimbledon, tour de France etc are totally different as they are exhibitions rather than a sanctioned world champs event, and athletes definitely get appearance fees for exhibitions. I think it's the same for track, athletics etc in general as well although granted I don't race them so don't know. Maybe someone else knows about some other sports and can shed some light?

I think the issue is more to do with working out where slopestyle/crankworks etc is right now. Athletes should definitely get renumeration for taking part in exhibition events and series events etc, of course they should, but I don't think they should for an official world champs event as, as far as I'm aware , that is line with other sports.

Do the DH and XC guys and gals get an appearance fee for world champs? I'm not sure they do, and don't think it would be unfair if they didn't. Should they get an appearance fee for the world cup series? Damn right they should. Slopestyle should be the same, in my opinion.

 @everythingscomingupmilhouse: I don't think big events with hundreds of starters are a fair comparison especially if its an open sign up. This is an invite only that spans across the globe and functions more like a global nitro circus / freestyle show rather than a marathon world champs...

 @jsnfschr: yes golfers get paid a minimum to be on the PGA tour.

 @Fmxexo: yeah and how many people play tennis world wide compared to those who bike no matter what format is the overall revenue must surely be greater!
It’s a shame mtb in general doesn’t get the attention or prize money it deserves!

 @bill-curran: Pretty sure they don't and that's why so many left to go play for LIV. LIV guys have signed a contract to play in x number of tournaments. PGA, you get paid by sponsors and performing. Many will get some kind of pay out if they make it to the final day of a tournament, but if you don't make the cut, you don't get paid.

Also, we can have the conversation about appearance fees when the money and sponsorship is there to make it happen. There is exponentially more money in golf than slopestyle. Come back when the top 20 slopestyle riders are sponsored by brands like Rolex, Omega, Ademars Piguet, Richard Mille, Hublot, not Swatch.

I absolutely think that the prize money should be increased, but I disagree that things like transportation, accommodations, food and appearance fees should be included. That should be covered by rider's sponsors.

 @Brestling: Nitro Circus is a show and a demo, not a competition with prize money (even if the prize money is crap). Sure there are lots of open competitions, but there are many that you still need to qualify for. You need to qualify for events such as the Boston or NY Marathon or Ironman triathlons, even if there are hundreds or even thousands of people participating.

 @everythingscomingupmilhouse: I don't believe there is any standard practice on that outside of maybe athletics, like boxing, darts and snooker are examples where an appearance fee (or prize money for qualifying for the tournament which is effectively the same) are standard.

I'd also say that slopestyle is always an exhibition event even if it's the most serious competition, by the nature of the sport and it being judged by a panel of judges, the same is true with other freestyle sports and when people are taking major risks to compete it's not quite the same as playing tennis or doing a triathlon.

It's also worth remembering that many of these sports not giving appearance fees is rooted in tradition from when they were entirely amateur and often largely restricted to upper class population and prize money was considered vulgar. When you make it expensive for people to compete in sports like this you only get trust fund kids doing it

 @PauRexs: where the f*ck you get that MTB is the second most popular sport?? You high?

 Fair point. Last year in Whistler was a good example, where 30000 people have been waiting for riders to decide to drop
There was no hold up on the organization side to speak of, but the riders wouldn't drop in because it's too windy.
While I understand they want to do their best run and wind may prevent that. I don't see a difference from a downhill rider in the gate saying they'll wait until the muddy track is dry so they can do their best run. It's mountain biking, and while I have full respect for the riders skills and most of those I've met are great people, we're still mountain biking and I'd like the sport to stay that way.
I don't hear DH riders not participating because it closes them money. Damn I race poorly, have no chance of winning money and still pay to go do it. Some of Canada's best dh racers work 9-5 to support their racing. It's a small sport still, and while I'd certainly like to see people make a decent living competing on bikes, where do you draw the line who should get compensated if everyone gets a bit? Where does the money come from? I don't recall Darren driving around in an expensive sports car to his mansion.
Maybe we're paying for raising a generation where everyone gets a participation trophy and now they're bummed they have to win to come out in the green

 @jsnfschr: Quote from Golf Monthly: "All exempt players on the PGA Tour are guaranteed $500,000 against earnings. But it’s not a salary. It’s a base level. Exempt PGA Tour players will receive $500,000 (rookies can claim it up front) and they only start to collect prize money when they earn more than that $500,000 base." And if they earn less than $500k, they don't have to give back any money.

Pretty sure one PGA player's base is more than the entire pool of prize money in all slopestyle events plus any three other MTB disciplines.

 @Marquis: Okay, so I'm off about the PGA. But it demonstrates how much money there is in golf. Pretty sure they're still responsible for to pay for their own accommodations and travel (which is much easier when you're getting paid $500k+) or sponsors help out, not the PGA itself.

 @MrDuck: DH racing and slopestyle are very different in regards to how the elements impact the sport. If the DH track is muddy/wet, you can make it down by slowing down and taking extra precautions, and with those lower speeds, you are less likely to get hurt. Plus, the moisture will soften the ground, leading to a less hard impact. We have all ridden mountain bikes in the rain/ wind, and it's all very doable.

In slopestyle, if it's windy, you eat shit from a huge height onto rockhard dirt regardless of skill. It's the same for Rampage. If it's windy, you are blown 5-10 feet to the side, which means you miss the landing on an already blind drop. Same goes for Hardline, as we all saw (or didn't see rather) how that played out.

The other issue is that the women WERE given the things the men are asking for. It's obviously tricky for them, because it isn't their fault. They also can't take a stand with the men, as this is their first time being in the event after years of effort. Rampage has an appearance fee, as does Hardline. This should be no different.

DH has a much broader competition base. There are not many slopestyle events out there, particularly at the pointy end. 4 major events a year with only 14 + 2 alternate athletes. There are regional high level DH races across the globe that are actually significant and attract the same top athletes.

Not to mention, if the Crankworx organizers can afford daily buffets for their staff, they can probably toss a few bones to the stars of the show.

 @luke7below: I guess the difference is that millions of people watch Wimbledon and thousands buy tickets. Mountain biking on the other hand… is not a sport that many people care about.

 @Fmxexo: they should all take up tennis

 @luke7below: Also tennis. Hundreds of millions of spectators, prime time MSM coverage. RedBull Hardline. Just clicked 1 million? False analogies aint going to cut it. Also, withdraw your commitment to appear at event at or during game, receive damages claims which is what these guys have guaranteed into all event conditions going forward.

 @Marquis: And yet 2-3 Billion know what is the PGA Tour, and maybe if lucky a few million know what the is CrankWorx........look, over there a squirrel.

 @leon-forfar: Well I don't know about daily buffets in Rotorua, but that's certainly not a thing in Whistler. I would know. Crankworx sure has grown, but there seems to be less support for organizers compared to a few years ago. While there's noticeable shift in how the company seems to operate recently, it's still a fairly small crew and none of them seem to be exactly "cashing in", just trying to put on events and keep it rolling.

I understand the differences between slopestyle and DH, and I know it's not so clear cut. But in the end this is a competition, and if the conditions aren't ideal, you dial it down. The jumps aren't THAT big, and a lot of expert riders could get over them. It wouldn't be a very good show, but that's not the point. Most expert riders aren't a great show on the DH either. I know, I'm one. While DH has much bigger attendance, even at the highest level there's many privateers that just pay to play.
But these guys here are pro athletes, paid by their sponsors to show up there. Not always a lot. But sticking with last year's example, you'd see Tom Isted just do laps on laps while the others kept saying it's too windy, then the sun's in the wrong spot etc..
There's gotta be a balance. I believe Rampage sorts that out rather fairly - there's a window the riders can delay start, then each rider has a time limit to drop in once started. It's a compromise, but I'd rather see them do a 60% run than sit around watching thousands of people get upset and intoxicated because nothing is happening at an event they've travelled to.

I can recognize that it is odd to give some riders a participation compensation and not others. But to refuse to compete on a day that's huge for women in the sport and realistically probably significantly affect the viewership, I think it's a poorly timed move. Having slept on it, I actually have bit less understanding for the riders.

There's a lot of pressure for everyone leading up to the event. I have friends among joyride competitors and you can see the personality change so much over the week leading up. It's serious business and definitely dangerous. But it's a position they've all worked up to knowing very well what they're doing. Sounds like the DH comparison doesn't cut it for ya, but in reality DH is absolutely not safer than slopestyle, and it's not like at Slopestyle you just show up. There's smaller FMB events all over the shop which I'd argue very well compare to local DH competitions. Where I'm from there's more competitions to get into jumping bikes than riding them fast down hills.

I'm all for support and more money to the athletes. But from recent experiences I may just stop caring for slopestyle.

 @MrDuck: I mean, they are pretty big jumps across the tour. Certainly not in your typical size range. Sure, a lot of riders can get through them with basic tricks with a bit of wind and sunlight in the eyes. But add in doing your hardest combos and being upside down or corked out in the wind, and it's a different ball game. Getting blown off balance/ off course while upside down 25 feet in the air is not chill at all, and leads to crashes/injuries. Whistler's course specifically is completely in the open, and the event generally happens at the windiest time of day against the riders fair wishes.

I know for a fact that most of the slopestyle athletes are not sponsored to the level that they are earning a salary. Most get discounts or a free bike, and some gear, but that's it. Heck, Tom Isted didn't even have a frame sponsor last year and literally bought a $350 glory frame online to go to Dark fest. Giant rightfully signed him after, but you get the point.

Again, as a privateer in DH, you have access to MANY more events and races. There are smaller FMB events, but there are WAY more dh races. It's not even a close comparison. There was 44 FMB events world wide last year from Bronze- Diamond. There are probably more than 44 DH races in the States alone. Privateers are able to piggy back off some of the bigger factory teams (share pits, etc) car pool, stay in vans etc. especially in europe/ the states. Slopestyle has 4 main events across 3 continents spread through the year which all require significant, and more importantly, separate travel expense.

I'm not saying DH is safer than Slopestyle. Overall, I would say DH is less safe, but for different reasons and causes. The big DH slams generally mess people up much more than a big slopestyle slam. I'm just pointing out how the elements affect the sports differently. Any time you are riding fast at the limit opens up the chance of a hard crash. But ultimately, that is in the control of the rider. Wind for slopestyle athletes removes their control over what they do in the air. Looking back, Camile balanche had a nasty crash on the road gap at a race from the wind, and as a result, they closed that feature for the race. They can't really close all the jumps and still run a slopestyle contest.

That is all beside the point. Crankworx has said they are open and willing to change the safety challenges around slopestyle, but they are just not willing to give the $2k appearance fee, and the major sticking point is that the women DID get that. From what I understand, the men are happy for the women, and want the same treatment to be applied at every event for both parties moving forward.

If no up and comers can afford to make it to events, then eventually, it will fizzle out and die. If you think about Chance Moore, as first alternate, he had to spend probably $2k in flights, lots in accomodation and food for the time there. If he got into the event, he potentially makes a name for himself and may be able to make a career. If he doesn't then he's out $5k-10K when all is said and done. If that is the case for all the rookies/ top 6-16, then how many times can they afford to travel like that? Doing that 4x a year is enough to rival some peoples yearly salaries in regular lines of work. The other athletes shouldn't have to pay for the new comers to attend so they have a full field. It's not sustainable, and it will lead to the death of slopestyle if it goes on forever. $2k each is not a huge ask at all, especially considering the small size of the field. Could the timing have been better? Yes. Could Crankworx have been willing to work with the stars of their show at any point in the years prior? Yes. Ultimately, the riders are proving that without them, there is no show period, and they are just as important as the organizers themselves. It takes two to tango, and crankworx has been out of step.

 @leon-forfar: I agree with many of your points, but I think you also outlined two that may be a reason we don't quite align here.
I am curious what's behind the decision to offer it to women only. At the same time, then why stop at slopestyle?
First one is the point of "But add in doing your hardest combos and being upside down or corked out in the wind, and it's a different ball game.". Expecting to always throw down the best is essentially expecting always having the right conditions, which is unrealistic. Rampage makes it work. Every other MTB discipline makes it work. I know that slopestyle is a lot about pushing the bigger trick, but in the same argument DH is about pushing the limits of speed. Both are going to be affected by conditions to some degree. And while slopestyle certainly wouldn't be any good in a downpour, the conditions last year were good enough for some riders to just play with it. I've been there for the past 12 years, heard the morning start discussions and feel like the morning often is less windy, but there's much bigger players than Crankworx involved in that call. Think broadcast etc..
Another one is the fact that "he had to spend probably $2k in flights, lots in accomodation and food for the time there. If he got into the event, he potentially makes a name for himself and may be able to make a career". Now that's a pretty good deal on a shot at a career! Try that in any other discipline. I don't think it's that simple. Of course it takes a long way and tons of effort to get a chance to go as an alternate. But I've had friends who did, and other than the competition they'd have a blast riding the area, realistically spending much more than the 2k but living a pretty good life.
I kind of support the idea of helping people out with the costs of competition, but this feels like a sh!++y form of protest to bail out last minute on the first one the women got to do, sort of taking the wind out of it..
I hope it gets resolved in a way everyone's sort of happy with and believe it will, just expressing I've been losing interest in the discipline watching the biggest events "not happen" due to riders bailing. Whether it's due to wind or not getting paid enough..

 @leon-forfar: The buffet comment from them was so weird considering most of the "staff" are volunteers. So its the absolute least they could do.

 What if I told you "pinkbike" wasn't a person and you are cherry picking the views of thousands of different people and mashing them together for your galaxy brain argument.

Redbull isn't exactly going broke and can afford to pay athletes... so they should, regardless of whatever "subscription model" they are hoping to implement.

 @RonSauce: uh redbull pays a ton of athletes and literally foots the bill 100% for things like rampage and hardline. All for what a couple thousand die hard mtbers to watch, in a way they can’t monetize at all? It’s seems to be popular to bite the hand that feeds in this sport and tbh I don’t know why Red Bull even bothers… when they decide it’s just not worth it PB is gonna be really moany.

 @pbfan08: they do those things because they generate viral video content that helps them sell their drinks. No problem with that, but lots of people on PB seem to confuse them with a not for profit benefactor who are supporting our sport(s) out of their own pockets.

Of course they are making money from their involvement in action sports, otherwise why would they do it? They are not above criticism, and the riders involved are entitled to withdraw their participation.

 @elbandido77: dude did you even read my comment?

Can you seriously look in the mirror and say fully funding Rampage and Hardline makes any meaningful difference in Red Bull sales? I’d be willing to bet it doesn’t. And you’re correct the athletes involved are entitled to withdraw, but let’s reverse the roles. Let’s say red bull “withdraws” this sport has essentially no marquee sponsors which is necessary to get the athletes paid. We still have a long way to go down from where we are, look at what happened to rollerblading in the 90s, paintball in the 00s and the whole lot of other action sports which never remotely “made it” (BASE jumping, wake boarding etc…).

It’s not popular to talk about on PB but the reality is there isn’t much money in mountain biking as a spectator sport and lamenting the handful of sponsors that make it happen is counter productive in the long term.

 I'd be fine with paying if I knew the riders actually got a significant cut

 @robotdave: Curious what you'd feel like paying for it to meet the threshold of what you'd deem acceptable and reasonable? I don't have any idea what that would be.

 @pbfan08: There is the real danger of killing their own sporting niche by such a performative walk-out. There's making a point, and then there's cutting of your nose, to spite your face. RedBull might just say 'f*ckiit' and look elsewhere....as there is a lot of other sports out there clamoring for a piece of the pie. And, you didn't see the women riders walking out.....that says something.

 @RonSauce: Not even a blib in RedBull's revenue or eyeballs, when 99.999% of eyeballs are on Melbourne Grand Prix at same time.

If they took the slopestyler's to the Grand Prix paddock, no one would leave their seats to observe.

 @RonSauce: Why should they. Riders can always not turn up to their events if they don’t think it’s worth it. Clearly most of the elite don’t hence why hardline is so badly supported by the top 20 in the world

 @pbfan08: RB is very very good at monetising these events that’s why they do it.

 @pbfan08: of course it does or they wouldn’t do it. It is that simple. That’s why they have professional influencers at the events to get the value on social media they want

 @chrismac70: Slopestyle athletes can't turn down these events if they've made the cut. It takes years of training and solid results to rack up the points to get into the Diamond Series. If you turn down the opportunity once you've made the cut, you could be pushed out by the time the next Diamond event comes around.

 @masters5: so what? Just because there is a grand prix at the same time doesn't mean they are operating in the red. If the athletes are so cheaply replaced... then do it.

If riders don't think they are getting what they are worth then that conversation is over. They don't owe you anything, if you want the privilege of having these athletes on your stage pay them. This really isn't complicated. Too much of this comment section seems to think top teir freeriders are are a dime a dozen.

 @RonSauce: Personally I think the riders probably do deserve lots of what they are asking for. However, I am extremely disappointed in their timing and as a result have no respect for them whatsoever. This should have been settled months ago, and if it wasn't settled, the riders should have said months ago 'we're not coming'. Fine, no issue with that. The market will decide their true value. Pulling out 24 hours before, and particularly at an event that is so significant for the female riders is just a dick move in my mind, and makes them out to be spoiled brats.

 @rmt: you can't strike when there isn't work. This is how striking works. Should they wait until the off season and see if they are offered more shout-outs and exposure?

Its really too bad for you that people looking after their own own livelihoods and future made you sad. Suck it up, you'll get over it with time. This isn't your decision to make, its not effecting your career, this isn't hurting your streaming numbers, this isn't lowering your take home from concessions.

Its a bunch of dudes doing 720s for money and they aren't happy with the offer they have been given. You could always sell you own 720s

 @RonSauce: Most strikes that I know of don't start with going to the boss on Friday and saying "unless you meet these demands, I'm on strike on Monday"

 @RonSauce: It's just bad form. Do you think in the future, that race series promoters are going to invite these same striking riders, for they might pull that shenanigan at a future event? Doubt it.....I think they didn't think this thru, and for all their impeccable timing their riding requires, they lack that entirely when making business decisions that will likely torpedo their careers. But hey - it's their life, they can do what they want with it and I can spout off from the comfort of my internet throne of all encompassing knowledge of the future and past.

 @rmt: my guy, thats almost exactly how strikes work. You are assuming alot about negotiations that you actually know next to nothing about. I would say this is more of a "walk out" than a strike, but the two aren't much different.

@jokermtb yes, I would say smart money that these riders will definitely still get invites. I would think blackballing them would be such a bad look for organizers that up and comers would be less likely to even want to attend. As for torpedoed careers, thats laughable in the current time of social media revenues. All of these riders can and will survive without this event, thats the reason they are putting pressure on organizers, because they can. Action sports athletes have a very VERY short shelf life and are treated as disposable and should get every penny they can.

 @RonSauce: My guess is that, while some of the bigger names are probably generating some kind of revenue from social media, I'm guessing a bunch of the newer and/or up and coming athletes don't know how to navigate that world.

I know a few guys in a different social media space who generate some income from having an online presence. I wonder how many young guys looking for sponsors are approaching companies with solid business plans (this is who I am, this is what I offer, and this is how I will benefit you as a company if you let me represent you, etc, etc) as opposed to just "hey, who wants to help me to get NZ to pursue my dream" (I've seen that from at least one of the up and comers).

I'm curious why it's just the slope guys who are making this a thing. Are the speed/style, dual slalom, pump track, air dh, regular dh, etc, different? What makes the slope guys (including up and comers) different from every other privateer racing enduro, dh, xc, etc? Most of those guys work crazy hard during the off season so they can take the summer off to race in Europe, North America, etc. There are dudes bike packing between events.

I agree the riders should have more of a say when it comes to event timing and safety, but its the riders responsibility if they want to make a living riding their bikes, not the organizers of the events they choose to participate in.

 @s100: by fine do you mean less prize money for a championship than a hardline win? Or do you mean how they can't even be watched because they aren't on ESPN/tsn/Redhill? I feel like I'm the same level of fine just being able to go to my 9-5 and I don't have work worry about being in a wheelchair after work every day.

 WC DH already has a union. They just don’t seem to be nearly as vocally against discovery and the uci as the fans.

 How much do riders get paid for the events they organize themselves? Like are they earning more for Fest series events? It seems kind of harsh, but I think that your payday from a crankworx event isn’t in prize money and appearance fees but on your own ability to monetize on the opportunity. It gets your name and face out there for sponsors and followers. There’s a lot of arguments against that. I’m a huge fan of slopestyle and I respect the hell out of the riders, but I’d be curious to know how much redbull is actually making off of this event. We’re all speculating wildly over what is fair but none of us know the revenue split.

 @gmiller720: there isn’t a lot of money in being a slopestyle rider unless you are consistently winning. Whether it be from sponsors or prize money at events, only the top handful are making any money.

I feel the appearance fee should be seen as a compensation for the personal expense to attend these event. Most riders aren’t trying to get payout, they are trying to minimize their losses. In the past some riders have dropped out of these events because they simply could to attend.

At the end of the day everyone is competing because they love the sport. If they were doing it for the money they would choose any other career.

Just my 2 cents

 @lanebodor: Exactly, bigger prize purse only helps the few guys that are consistently on the podium. An appearance fee helps the smaller/ up and coming/ less supported riders to actually make it to the event they've trained so hard and fought their way into.
It's so hard to be at that level of competition and work a full time job to have enough money to fly to 3 different countries/continents to make it to the event. All the focus to be this good basically makes riding full time the only viable option to keep up the skills and there's definitely a number of the guys in the field that have been struggling to find support in terms of frame deals, let alone monetary compensation to make it easy to travel also...

 @sharpiemtb: #UNIONSTRONG

 @TheSlayer99: because they are getting what they wanted. Less riders, safer tracks, more money.

 @willtriv: I mean they are working together as a cohesive group to get what they deserve. If they added a union they would loose a slice of the pie.

They are already totally united. Focused. Got cwx attention and are sitting at the table. Good for them.

 @lanebodor: travel, 2 hots and cot is all they need. As well as better safety around wind and weather. Design it to run with the wind maybe? Make stuff 5% smaller to handle wet conditions and keep it running safe? Add some more flow and pull the speeds down a little bit? You can see the concern these guys have whenever someone drops in cause they all know they're up against the edge of what can be done on the given setup. Hopefully they find a resolution to their concerns.

 @sharpiemtb: few possibilities:
1. You don't understand what a union is or the benefits they bring in a 2024 labor market (i.e. ignorant)
2. You do understand what a union is, but you stand to lose money from their existance (i.e. you exploit workers).
3. You are a rock (I think this one is pretty self-explanatory).

My guess is 2 or 3.

 No soup for you! Fu&k you! Strike!

 @sharpiemtb: my union is great and I couldn't afford life without it

 @MikeGruhler: Then they should ask their sponsors to pay for it. If they don’t want to pay then don’t go.

 Yeeeees.

 @luckynugget: but the guys won’t be double flipping anything now, will they?

 I can certainly understand the guys decision in this situation. It's a blow for Crankworks though - the men's slopestyle is one of the top shows.

 Do that and the boys will want theirs doubled as well. Is it a coincidence that the girls are all getting an attendance fee here and now the boys want the same?

 @trillot: Where does it state that female riders are getting something the males are not? It would appear to me that the female riders have had it a worse than the males for some time now. The timing of this action from the male riders has overshadowed their moment.

 @luckydan: The women have had it worse/ not at all, which is likely why the organizers probably went out of their way to do something nice for them. It's just a shame they didn't consider the needs and requests of the men at the same time when they have been asking for similar things for years. It does not state that publicly, but the women were given those things. This is directly from people invited to ride in the event, and insiders.

 @leon-forfar: OK, so rumour.

 @luckydan: ... directly from people in the slopestyle event.

 @leon-forfar: Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a d***. It just seems that there are some underlying motives running through comments from others on here trying to make out as though the women have it better than the men or are undeserving of support. I expect we agree that it would be best if a good solution could be negotiated that makes things sustainable for all athletes and organisers.

 Damb right. The women are strike breakers!

 @luckydan: I think the key word is 'sustainable'. It is great to see more females competing in mtb competitions but the growth should be as organic and natural as possible IMO. That way female participation will be a permanent long-term (and sustainable) thing. If the participation is created artificially (through positive discrimination), then it is likely to be short-lived and potentially damaging to the sport overall which will be a disservice to both male and female riders.

 I'd say with 100% certainty that the men would all support that...

 They will certainly be getting a pay cut from their sponsors if they stop competing.

 Seems like part of the problem is maybe that it's the same few guys in the top spots at most of these events. So when all the pay is based on results, the guys that aren't consistently in the top tier aren't taking home much money. But those guys are still necessary for the comp to be legitimate, and they're still incurring a lot of expense by traveling and competing. I can understand the desire for an appearance fee for these bigger events that generally require international travel.

 Keep in mind you're reading the event's side of the story, not the riders...

 @toast2266: I think another part of the problem is that I don't think there is a ton of revenue coming in.. Redbull broadcasts the event at no charge to us the viewers.. In the NBA, MLB, and other professional sports TV revenue gets shared amongst teams in the league. It would be interesting to see a P&L from the Crankworks crew on an event like this..

 So, without knowing the financials, what if this makes Darren and crew decide it's not going to be viable? Does Crankworx and FMB tour possibly go away? Does Redbull take over?

 @luckynugget: the riders side of the story is there, it just lacks substance. Their statement didn’t give any details of what their requests are. I would actually l really like to hear more from them to get both sides of the story (why they rejected a 37% increase in prize money at a time when the sport is not doing well)

 @toast2266: That’s in many sports. You work to get sponsors until you get results. I used to race Hare Scrambles and you’d have to foot the bill until you proved that a sponsor could use you.
It’s even easier now if you have an online presence.

 @manybrouce: in the statement made by Darren in which he read the list of demands made by the riders, the riders stated that those were non-negotiable. The organizers gave them everything but the appearance fee. Usually, there are compromises in negotiations. The riders seem to have an all or nothing stance and they might end up with nothing..

 @lumpy873: Seems like a complex issue. I think for Redbull, broadcasting for free is part of their marketing expense, and their business model is across so many action sports that they are involved with. Yes, they could try and charge a pay per view or add more advertisements, to offset higher payments to athletes, but they probably don't want to change the formula for one - or the other sports ask for the same (heck - see what happened here - they gave the girls an appearance fee, now the guys want it too. Me, me, me.). At the end of the day, with most competitions, the prize money isn't the big source of revenue - athletes get bonuses for placing from sponsors. That said, right now, I bet a lot of bike companies are getting tighter with that. And why not - just because X rides a Y (at slopestyle no less) does that really affect your next bike purchase? Maybe when I was 10 years old... And the guys at the tail end of the invite list - well, if you can't get a sponsor to pay, maybe you just have to stick with those events on your continent, until you can find someone to pay your way.

 @trillot: I don't think Crankworx is a Redbull event like Rampage and Hardline. They just broadcast it. Watching the pump track replay as I type this and I see no Redbull signage.

Equality has been a hot topic for several years in our sport. And, if the women are getting travel, lodging, and appearance money, I don't blame the men for wanting the same.

 @lumpy873: good point and thanks for the correction. But either way, Redbull must pay a big licensing fee to Crankworks to broadcast. And if prize money goes up, Crankworks probably wants to offset that somewhere - meaning charging more for broadcasting rights or...?

 @trillot: Here's the problem for the organizers.. These contracts that provide the money to run these events have been signed and done well before the event. So, when the men come asking for more, (or the same as the women possibly) that money doesn't just appear. I suspect these terms apply to the whole series and not just this one event. That suddenly becomes a pretty big number. I see a lot of Sram, Maxxis, and Pinkbike banners.. Do they have more money to throw in? Is Redbull willing to throw in more money? I would guess that they have the deepest pockets of all involved...

 Putting eyes on the layout of the course isn’t possible until the boys arrive in person. Weather is pretty last minute too.

 Yea almost everyone had to travel 30+ hours and spend lots of time and money.

 @ethanrevitch: but so did crankworx… and they can’t control the weather

 @angryWaki: control the weather? This is about money.

 It was. The riders changed their minds at the event

 @trillot: it's not striking if you don't hurt someone / the org with your actions bud. Striking 101

 Exactly what I thought. It seems reasonable and affordable.

 @greenblur: $32,000 per event, not per rider. They are asking for $2000 per rider per event.

 @sickdj17: that makes more sense.

 Seems simple, lower the overall podium prizes, distribute that to all riders to provide free accommodations and travel.

You can most certainly bet that many riders would take a free trip to attend one of the premiere global events. That in itself is a prize.

Downside will be that many riders might not get invited because the event doesn’t deem them worthy. Should they be able to pay to play? I wonder if that already happens - top riders get attendance remuneration, but alternates do not? The thinking being to the alternates - “you don’t have to attend.”

I wonder what the total prize money looked like? Could the winners just have agreed to distribute those funds among fellow riders? Split the pot, so to speak?

 @PHeller: Splitting the prize money would make the situation even worse as that is the whole incentive to compete against each other to begin with...
A reasonable compromise would be to have a minimum payout, that the Alternates also receive, that covers costs to attend the event, as Alternates are also important to have a full rider list if a couple athletes are unable to compete. But that payout would start from the first rider not winning that amount in prize money. Rather than the people on the podium also getting an extra payout. It would cost Crankworx less money (If they are so hard done by that they aren't making significant profits throughout the year..) and would be a better solution than being dead stubborn and the sport fading away completely. Some parts of this do need to be somewhat open to negotiation...

Also, they don't just throw invites out to the handful of riders they like. These athletes have to work their way up the ranks by doing all lower level FMB events to earn enough points to make it onto the Diamond (Crankworx) series. It is the highest level of Slopestyle competition and it shouldn't cost the riders in that top 16 to attend the events they're exclusively invited to, after they've spent the past 5+ years fighting their way to that level.

 @Joyrode: doing away with the slopestyle triple crown prize would cover the appearance fee for 1 of the 4 events. Only Emil is winning that anyway and I doubt he is hurting for cash.

 Then why did they sign up to compete if they didn’t like the deal on offer.

 You want to negotiate that at invite time. That's great.

You want to demand that at the last minute in the middle of the event? Nope. That's not how any business deal is done. These guys have shown they can't be trusted and have burnt the event, their sponsors and their fans.

 @PHeller: So participation money in addition to a participation trophy? Why don't they just all get paid the same, call it a show instead of a race, and manage the story line like fake wrestling.

Easy. And no one gets hurt. Sounds like a win for everyone involved.

 The demands may not be unreasonable. The way they made them was. I don’t expect a slopestyle rider to be the sharpest tool in the shed, but that was impressively naive. Going down there (already incurring all the travel cost they now talk about, showing the world they can obviously afford those, even if there is to be no price money at all in the end), then making three separate demands and requesting those be fulfilled within three days. Do they actually think any of the corporate sponsors will free additional marketing budget within that kind of timeframe? Or that the local organization in Rotorua just has that money lying around?

 @FuzzyL: more difficult to organize across the globe with everyone’s different schedules and some riders being harder to contact and communicate with.

Get everybody in a room together or around a campfire and suddenly the complaints and consensus starts to freely flow.

 Thank you

 Maybe the riders just wanted to count a bunch of stuff?

 Thank you for allowing me to not be the guy

 @warmerdamj: Gotta be good at math to count how many barspins and tailwhips they do now.

 Pro riders should get start money. It’s pretty common for cross riders, though most of it goes to top guys like WVa and MvDP

 I mean, they have to operate essentially private bike parks to train. They aren’t really on a salaried factory race team like DH/WC. They probably have some of the highest personal costs to operate, and arguably have the biggest content reach of the mountain bike scene.

My dad isn’t sending me random videos of dh racing, but I’m getting 2015 cwx highlights.

 @bgracewood: football, tennis, golf, heck, rugby…

 @bgracewood: Ramage

 @bonfire: playing devil's advocate here... How important actually is it to the companies sponsoring the riders if content is reaching random people who will never buy their products? The links that get sent around my riding buddies (who definitely will spend their money on bike kit) is almost never related to this FMB mtb type content.

 @Joebohobo: they’re all paid by sponsors and TV money. The FÍA doesn’t pay F1 drivers and FIFA doesn’t pay football players.

 Even triathlon has a league now where they are paying athletes to be a part of it to show up to every race in that particular series

 Hardline riders get an appearance fee

 @Joebohobo: yeah but not world champs which they are saying this event is

 @bgracewood: actaully mostly they are paid by the clubs. Clubs may raise revenue through sponsors and players might have individual sponsors deals but the club foots the wage.

 Entitled to ask for it to not cost them their own money to turn up to an event. Wtf is entitled about that.

 @xciscool: Spectators pay money to watch cyclocross races and people pay to watch them streaming. When VDP or WVA show up they get a lot more paying spectators. I've been to CX races in Europe where there are 20,000+ spectators paying over $20USD to watch. I don't think Crankworx charges general admission. I think you can pay for VIP access but I doubt that comes close to the revenue a big cyclocross races gets in Europe.

 @jonemyers: Crankworx charges spectators at every event other than Whistler and it's far from cheap. $100 for a 3-day children's spectator pass at the Cairns stop.

 @jonemyers: Crankworx Rotorua is not free like Whistler. They charge 37.5$ per day ticket or 80$ for the weekend to spectate any of the live events. VIP-tickets are 130$ per event on top of that. As for the Whistler event ( but assume Rotorua is the same), brands have to pay top dollar just to have a little 10x10 tent in the village. For every little activation they do outside of that, you'll have to pay extra.

 @EggsandApps: Thanks for the clarification. I was only aware of the Whistler fees. Any guesses on attendance and gross ticket sales?

 @jonemyers: Whistler stop was apparently 300,000 attendance over 10 days. Not sure if they publish attendance from the other stops.

 @jonemyers: Rotorua is a ghost town this year. You’d be lucky if there were a couple of thousand people here.

 @bgracewood: I reckon Cairns would be lucky if it cracked a few thousand attendance on slopestyle day. Venue is relatively out in the boonies and pricing is steep enough to deter casuals.

 the idiots in the chat think this is fake lol

 @angryWaki: Yeah but you probably s*ck on a bike just as pretty much everyone here.
You don't have to accept everything because "it can be worse".

 They aren’t owed anything. They chose to compete on the trend offered and now decided they don’t like them. If they don’t like the deal then why sign up

 @nvranka: no it’s not. It’s reality. If I was an event organiser then stunts like this would go into the good reasons for not organising events. Everyone complains that there aren’t enough events and then these riders promptly sabotage the event organisers

 @nvranka: assuming you don't know who Si or or the festival he puts on (which way back in the day was perhaps the biggest thing in the UK year on year) - he'll be very much aware of what costs are involved in a big event...

 Agree. I'm all for what they are asking for, but the timing is . . . poor. Pretty disappointed.

 How does this take away from anything the women are doing? If anything it'll put even more attention on the womens comp. All eyes on women's slopestyle in Rotorua is a good thing IMO

 @luckynugget: it's their own choice to risk their lives, and they did it before big events and sponsoring happened. Giving more money incentives more risk and at least I hate seeing the dudes (and girls) take big slams. And the girls not doing the same huge tricks is a totally different topic, the sport doesn't start at cwx but at local skateparks, that's where inclusion has to begin.

 @cyclocrossmonkey: I’m 100% in support of what they are asking for. The timing is just a bit poor and from my perspective it takes more attention away from women’s slope style and even more attention on the men. But hopefully it’ll all work out for the betterment of both women and men competitors

 I think pulling the women into a strike at the first women’s slopestyle event would be a pretty big bummer, sucking more momentum off of women’s freeride/slopestyle. This way there's still something awesome to be excited about as negotiations happen on the side, and if anything the added publicity and lack of men's slopestyle will bring more viewers out for the women. I suspect that they've waited till this moment to make a statement specifically in order to give the women a bigger spotlight, too; the pro slopestyle community is pretty small and seems to be tight-knit, so I can’t imagine there wasn’t a conversation with the women about how this would go down.

 Sounds like this was great timing, then, since you’re talking about it.

 Redbull actually helps a lot of athletes with recovery. New Zealand feee healthcare would too

 Redbull sets the terms and these riders show up, it’s not like there tricked they can go start there own event if they want to

 I could totally imagine taking a trip to whistler and winding up on Friday fails if that’s what you mean.

 That what insurance is for. Similar to the freeride world tour (from the top to qualifying) or privateer dh racing, you assume the risk, insure yourself.

 @shuttlebuddy123: Sounds like the riders dont like the terms so they arent showing up.

 If your spending your own money to get there then you are not a professional athlete.

 @theredbike: then why didn’t they sort it out never incurring the cost of being there if they are that short of money

 @chrismac70: why would they all refuse to ride if their needs are being met

 THIS

 This didn't come out of the blue for the riders. They waited until they had leverage. As they should. And they have stood their ground, as they should.

 @dadof4: you're telling me the top 20 whatever slope riders couldn't have communicated with each other 3 months ago and agreed not to compete unless they got an appearance fee? It's not like CWX can just call up a bunch of unknowns or 2nd tier riders to come compete without anyone asking questions.

 @angryWaki: hopefully this brings more focus onto the womens event.

 @dadof4: So instead of negotiating ahead of time and having events run smoothly, all athletes should show up at an event and demand to renegotiate payment or go on strike? Imagine if that happened in every sport once the playoffs arrived, when athletes have the most "leverage". Fans would lose respect quickly.
I never really respected slopestyle in the first place and now it's in the permanent shitter for me .

 @hohmskullkrishten: have we not learned anything over the decades of sport controversy?

You don’t know shit about the situation, now just sit there and look pretty while it unfolds.

 @thebradjohns: This has been ongoing for years, but so far they have been ignored, hence the drastic measure. It shouldn't have gotten to this point, but it is for the best long term.

I do think crankworx could easily pull in alternates with enough notice as "the show must go on" and plenty of young guns would be frothing to skip the line and get into Crankworx. Their (quite reasonable) demands will only become a reality through bold moves like this. Playing nicely clearly hasn't worked, and I can only commend them for actually having the balls to take a stand.

 @loudvq: agreed. I wonder how many could now face breach of contract cases with either the organisers or sponsors. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you

 @hohmskullkrishten: bootlicker

 @samanual: Strong comeback sweaty sock porridge jock.

 @DownhillDaniel20: it is very easy to say. Given 20+ years racing and a spectator having to pay out of pocket for zero money and risking injury.

If it is your job then MAYBE… that is something that should be accounted for when signing deals and contracts. Maybe.

Point is, don’t bite the hand that feeds you.

 How would you feel if your employer wasn’t paying you to turn up to work?

Would you continue being a good employee and keep turning up? After all it would be wrong to screw over your clients and customers.

 @LukeDaws: Aren't their sponsors the employer in this case?

This is an event with prize money that's providing a course and venue, show up if you want to.

 This is actually the definition of great sportsmanship. If the riders don't feel everyone is safe and fairly compensated, then nobody rides. Really impressive organization.

 @mtbikesince87: exactly. The event is a part of the job their sponsors are 90% responsible to ensure they are equipped to attend.

@lukeDaws if you think that the event is the one that should take the heat for this then we need to end all mtb events and to run them pay each person to attend
Your comment has no logic

 The paying customers buy the event tickets from Crankworxs, not the riders. The majority of the competitors do not see any of that money.

Do you know how many of these riders have any meaningful sponsorship money? How many are scraping together money from a job that they are trying to hold down while trying to train, pay for gas, vehicle, food and rent, and still have such a desire to be in the sport that they pay for their own airline tickets and expenses to get to the event and put a show on for the fans? Most of the competitors pay significantly more, out of their own pockets, to come to these events than they could ever hope of recouping - therefore they are paying so that you can watch them. These riders show up to the competition out of love for the sport, love of the friends and for anyone who enjoys watching.

When they get hurt, break a bone (or two or three) in a competition (where the fans have paid the organizers), they can’t work a job or even get around very well. Think about how a concussion or breaking an arm or a leg impacts being able to hold down a job. They have to do weeks, months or even a year to get back….. that’s on them and it’s out of their pocket. Neither the organizers, nor the spectators are paying their rehab bills, rent, or food during that time. Many riders have been in this position more than a few times.

So if you can find a way to understand that this move from the riders to stand their ground is not done without thought and hope of a better situation for those who struggle to get you ‘your’ show, and not intentionally let you down because they love it so much. They want a situation where they can keep riding, pay their bills and expenses and have some left over to take care of any recovery so you can have a great time.

 @revolver26: Yeah, athletes get hurt in all kinds of sports and have to take time off work to recover. It's not exclusive to mountain biking or slopestyle. Road cyclists get in crashes and have to recover/rehab. Weightlifters and power lifters blow knees and elbows and backs and have to recover/rehab. Gymnasts get injured and have to recover/rehab. Skiers and snowboarders in all disciplines get injured and have to recover/rehab.

In every single sport, there are athletes at the top who likely have better support from their sponsors, but there are also those who don't and struggle to find a balance between regular life and pursuing their dream. It's not a unique problem and it's not a new problem.

Regardless of what we think here on PB, slopestyle is an incredibly niche sport with really limited opportunities to grow. Niche sports don't have the same budget as mainstream sports.

 @jsnfschr: way to miss the point and run with it.
My reply was to someone saying that the athletes here’s are being selfish. In no sane world can I see how paying out of your own pocket and taking a financial loss to compete in an event, and put on a show that is seen around the world by millions, is selfish.
Let me ask this: do you think the organizers are paying for their own travel out of their pockets, or is that from event sponsors money?

 @revolver26: if they are working to fund this then by definition they are not professional athletes. They are talented hobbyists who do it for fun. Professional athletes make their living from the sport

 @chrismac70: How do you not see that this is the exact reason they're asking for more compensation to make it to these events? This is the elite level they have to work insanely hard to reach, a number of the riders make a living doing it, but the guys that have just cracked they're way into it are struggling for enough support to even get travel budget to get to the event.
Once they've shown their potential in the big show then the paying sponsors may start coming...

 @revolver26: I'm not trying to say the athletes are being selfish. I'm sympathetic to to the position they're in. I wouldn't be mad at increasing the prize money, but absolutely do not believe it's the organizers responsibility to pay for travel and accommodations for athletes who are competing.

I'm sure the organizers have travel and accommodations included in their fee for organizing, but they are hired by Crankworx to organize and INVITE athletes to participate in their competition. The athletes are not employed by Crankworx and no one is forcing athletes to attend.

How many professional privateer enduro, dh and xc riders are out there that work all off season so they can race around the world during the competition season, but never get a factory ride during their careers? They're paying out of pocket for travel and accommodations. Same with skiers and snowboarders (racing/slope/pipe/etc). What makes mtb slope any different?

The fact of the matter, there are some professions that are nearly impossible to break into, be successful and make money. This is one of them.

 @nvranka: honestly who cares?

Slopestyle is more about creativity now than it is outright skill. I don’t need to see quad backflips and 1020 bars pins. If women can do the amazing stuff we see in gymnastics and figure skating, slopestyle will be easy. Don’t very often see dudes doing splits while handstanding on fixies, do we?

Also remember that 20 years ago the state of slopestyle was pretty weak, and I bet there are many women who can throw moves far better than men of that era.

I’m more interested to watch the women’s event with my daughters than I was the men’s event.

 @nvranka: what a lame take. I would bet money they’re better than you…

 @seanfeezy: lol good thing you don’t have much to bet.

 And it’s the riders who have lost out. Who will take the financial risk of organising future events if riders pull out at the last minute. Who is going to buy tickets knowing that the riders might walk away at the last minute.

 @chrismac70: That is not the definition of professional. Please show me which dictionary provided you with this definition.

Here's what I found;

-relating to or belonging to a profession
-engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime
-worthy of or appropriate to a professional person; competent, skillful, or assured.
-a person engaged or qualified in a profession
-a person engaged in a specified activity, especially a sport or branch of the performing arts, as a main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.
-a person competent or skilled in a particular activity

Doesn't sound anything like the made up stuff you keep pushing. And look, there's more than one definition! There are many professional athletes that work another job to make ends meet, doesn't mean they aren't pro's.

 @gnarnaimo: to quote your own comment “ engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime”. If they aren’t earning a living from it then they don’t meet this definition