DescendingCruising around on trails at a slower speed it does feel a bit like the bike isn’t really giving you anything back and is sometimes a bit hard to hold a line with. The bike also barely came out of the slack setting, mainly to try and get the bottom bracket down to avoid the feeling of being top heavy and toppling over into the corners. Increasing the speed on trail does make the Warden give more back. It’s a bike that can go really fast and attempt to keep up with some of the 29er enduro bikes that are more common today. But there’s a bit of a window to where the Warden feels at its best on the trail as up at the ragged edge it does begin to get a bit wild aboard it.
It also isn’t a bike that eggs you on to go faster and push harder. While pottering around at slow speeds you don’t get the sense you’re being nudged by the bike to pick the pace up a bit. You tend to just end up riding the bike faster and then discovering that in the middle zone is where it goes best.
The window of operation started to become more apparent on much rougher sections of trail that are best hit at speed and with a bunch of aggression. In those sections the Warden LT started to feel less precise and more unsettled. While it could hustle along through those fast rough parts, I really had to pay less attention to what was going on beneath you and just get on with it. If I paid attention to it a bit too much then I'd likely reduce the speed to get it back in its comfort zone. So, while it can go really fast, you need to ignore a bit of the chaos happening and just get on with the job in hand. Up at these speeds and aggression levels it didn’t feel that it’s where the Warden LT excels.
When the trail is a little more mellow and a touch less demanding, then the Warden starts to shine and everything starts to slot into place. Over in the Alps there are a few trails that really have a Canadian feel to them, those secret trails around the Sea to Sky zone being my reference. They’re soft, loamy, undulating and starting to become just a touch more rooty and rocky as the soft ground breaks up and exposes them. While I call them a little slice of Canada here in Switzerland, they’re somewhat replicas of the stomping ground for Knolly and this was the light bulb moment with the Warden LT.
Give it something like this, and it is in its element. Not absolutely at the ragged edge but still cracking on and terrain that just undulates so smoothly up and down as well as left and right that you’re not getting all twisted up and chucked around. All the while needing to absorb the constant pitter patter of those roots and rocks that are just breaking through the soil as well as support you in the undulations as the trail makes its way down the hill.
Despite the angular contact bearings, there is some noticeable flex in the bike. You can notice the rear of the bike moving around when you really get motoring in particularly rough sections of trail that have a lot of twisting input from terrain and rider alike. The pivots are very small in diameter and the rear tube sections are very thin. This increased flexibility doesn’t lend itself well to inspiring the utmost confidence up at the ragged edge and when you need to be precise but forceful and aggressive with your riding. But again, that doesn't seem to be where the Warden excels.
That slightly higher than normal bottom bracket, and low bar height, might also be contributing factors to the recommended 30% sag, and the Warden LT does feel better with more sag in the back, along with a much stiffer than recommended fork setup. I even experimented with sag approaching 35% to get the bottom bracket lower and counter some of that deadlift position feeling to it, but that was getting too far into a corner of setup and the negatives of the big sag began to outweigh the positives. But, even with 30% sag in the shock the Warden LT wasn’t banging off the bottom out bumper all day long. While I could bottom it out with some good hucks to flat, it felt like there wass a good dollop of bottom out support in there and the increased sag didn’t yield too much of a sluggish feeling in the suspension.
On that note, it is an easily manoeuvrable bike, some of that attributed to the slightly shorter reach in real life than on paper with the tower of stem spacers and high amounts of sag. It’s a bike that does like to play on the trail. A manual here, a nose bonk there are all welcome, possible and encouraged.
Over the past few years, I’ve been riding a lot of bikes so focussed on speed and aggressiveness of trail. Understandably, too, as there are so many of them out there right now that need testing. But having ridden over in that Canadian area the idea of a big pedal out to ride a big tech line, maybe not at the highest of speeds, seems to be what the Warden LT is for, and so excels at. If there’s a stopwatch involved then the Knolly would rather go grab a beer. This is also something that Knolly were alluding to when we were discussing setting up the test bike. While the Warden LT could enter an enduro race, that’s not really i's forte.
It’s a bike that’s going to transport you to the top of a hill in a non-rushed fashion and then make you smile on those technical, steep and tricky descents where your satisfaction in riding is going to come from clearing a section of tech rather than death gripping and hitting it as fast as humanly possible. And in those soft and meandering trails, often described as loamy, it's actually a joy to ride. There’s many a way to have fun on a bike and with all these ridiculously fast but sometimes single minded 29ers of late I might have forgotten about some of the other ways to have fun on a bike other than just scaring myself with speed.
From what I know about Knolly's... yes reach is long, but it's part of why their headtubes are so short. Some people love that low head tube feel and will ride it long and slammed... but then you can put 20mm of spacers under your stem, shorten that long reach by 10mm and you're all set.
Your stack would have been much higher and you would have been wayy more comfortable on a Large.
I generally agree with the reviewers ideas on ride characteristics but think he would have been better served on a L.
But yeah, agreed - the bike must have felt comically small while descending. I'm 5" shorter than the reviewer and ride bikes with a longer reach.
I like the non kinked seat tube as I love mashing in a 210 dropper onto my bikes and I generally size down on bikes.
Finally, a rant about significant digits (“sig digs”): when manufacturers’ state lengths in mm it is stupid to report it to 1 decimal point (ie 475.5mm). It’s really stupid and is literally splitting hairs
It's also a lot more than just reach... sizing way down to a medium means he's not just riding too short of a reach for the way the bike was designed, but his stack is too low (as he talked about), his wheelbase is too short (talks about it being not as stable during high speed) and his seat tube is too short meaning he needs lots of seat post and will end up too slack of a SA... changes the whole perception of the bike.
Personally I don't like when reviewers stray from the manufactures recommended sizing for reviews. They build bikes and sweat the geo numbers in each size so that the bike rides and feels a certain way for that size of rider. When you sizing way up or down like that it messes with the feel and intentions of the bike and I think it clearly comes across in the review... he just didn't feel all that comfortable.
Sure, buying a bike for yourself and you know what kind of reach/wheelbase/stack/HTA/STA relationship you like, then ya, pick your size based on that. For a review... no thanks, I want to know how the intended design of the bike rides for intended sized rider.
@baldybrucetires: a human hair is a tenth of a mm. So it's literally splitting five hairs
The 29er has a 20mm longer axle to crown and 20mm larger wheel radius, so whan accounting for head angle you have a front end that is like 30mm lower for the same fork travel. Santa Cruz an Ibis more or less take this into account, their 27.5 bikes have 130-150mm head tubes but I think it's wild so many companies don't.
Are they actually meant to fit totally differently?
I ride one of these. I'm 5 foot 10 and on a large and it's perfect. A medium would be too small for me.
Was thinking this myself. I’m 5’10.5” and a tweener with medium and larges. Have checked out the Warden and a 6’2” rider on one seems far too small.
It'd be nice if manufacturers kept reach and stack similar between wheels sizes for bikes if the same wheel size and travel but at least Knolly did try to compensate they just overestimated people's ability to take l the numbers into account.
Size wise I'm 6' and thought the Large was too small for me. The reviewer being 2 inches taller and on a medium, is far too short a bike IMO.
Guess I’m just sour about something entirely different: after looking at a knolly chilcotin 151 (which fits my riding style most), I’m bummed to find out the smallest size is medium w a reach of 466 and I’d want a bike w a reach of 435-440. Obvs I also consider sta, hta, wb, stack, etc. As an “average height” 5’8” dude just feels weird that I can’t find a knolly chilcotin in the size I want.
Chooses a medium. Complains seat tube too short and stack height too low. wut.
There are some limits though, Knolly seems to sweat the numbers, but when Commencal Meta 29 has 433 CS from S to XL with 445 to 520mm reach, I don't believe all 4 sizes can be balanced. Following manufacturer recommendations blindly isn't the answer either, even though with this review I also would have picked the L.
As knolly says,
"nimble enough to get you into trouble and burly enough to get you out"
Nike says I should wear a size 9, so I got a pair of size 7.5's to review.
Guess what, my feet hurt and it's difficult to run in them...
One of the worst reviews I've ever read on PB (and they want to charge us money to read this lol!?)
If you like shoe analogies, it would be more like picking your shoe based on how wide it is and not considering how long it is. If you picked your shoes that way you could get the right size shoe, from companies that use typical proportions, but if a particular shoe company made their shoes a bit wider per length, those shoes wouldn't fit.
Anyway, anyone that misunderstands the fundamentals of bike geometry and sizing so badly can't really be trusted to offer a credible opinion. So for me, this review is useless.
Except there are riders 5’10” and 5’9” on the same size? The tester is 4 to 5 inches taller and its abundantly clear that he was far too tall to be on a medium sized Warden. Yes, sizing up would have made a difference for overall feel, not just stability. This was a blatant oversight and mot a credible review as a result.
He looks like a monkey humping a football in the ride shots.
As a rough guideline, on a modern enduro bike, adding x spacers reduces reach by x/2
Just look at the pictures. He looks like he's about to put some high rise bars on that thing so he looks cooler hopping curbs on his way to buy a pack of pall malls and a 40. I'm surprised nobody reported the bike as stolen after seeing him ride it.
Not a knolly owner or fan, but I've learned nothing useful about their bikes from this review.
If you isolate reach, that it becomes a totally meaningless number. Look at some of the work that PVD has done on that. I think some of his bikes have a reach of 530 mm and he is shorter than 6'.
Those pictures are comical.
Would love to know if Dan used to ride XXL bikes 15 years ago if his bike choices are based on reach measurements
Even pre pandemic shortage it's still true that you VERY OFTEN have to pick bikes based on geo charts and compare them with the geo charts of bikes you already know fit good and then just roll the dice. I've never had a shop offer to order me an XL bike for me to try out without me being on the hook to buy the bike whether it fit OR not. (and because of that I have bought large bikes that were too small and XL bikes that were too big) I'm just a smidge over 6'2" and I'm most often between L and XL's. But I've also considered and rode mediums and XXL bikes depending on the geo numbers. So again, I get where he was coming from.
ON the flip side... it's not really fair to the manufacturer if you review their product outside it's intended purposes and I think especially for mountain bikes fit/sizing is part of the product they are selling. If this was an A+ review nobody would care what size he was on. But as a product tester, if you have issues with the product the first thing you have to do is make sure your using it right... And if your complaining about the short seat tube when your reviewing a smaller frame then the manufacturer suggests then it should have been a "light-bulb" moment.
First thought is that they should have shipped the bike to a shorter tester and just said the timing wasn't going to work out so the 2nd tester could have a go without preconception. 2nd option, order in a large frame and repeat the testing and compare the results from the two sizes. (never know, maybe the riding impressions wouldn't change?) 3rd option, not as good as the first two. But at the very least "this" review should have been written with the mindset of "maybe I should have got the large". Honestly it would have been a poor review at that point because you'd be like, "it's really playful, but I wonder if that would be true on the large". Or, "it's not as stable at speed, but I wonder if it would be in a large". Course at that point you should have known this review wasn't going to fly and went with option 1 or 2!!
Still, as someone who has struggled with bike fit their whole life I do appreciate the issues that were raised.
As someone who is also 6'2" with long-ish legs, I get it. My current rig is a 170mm+ enduro bike with 487mm reach on my size Large. It feels long. Dare I say, a touch too long, especially with my preferred bar width. If I had a gun to my head and had to pick a 500mm or 475.5mm reach, I would happily go for the 475.5. No question.
He should have picked a large which still has a short head tube, put 10mm of spacers under it and rode the size that was designed for him... as he did with the other bikes he tested and then compared against this bike. Doesn't make sense for reviewers to be picky about size. They should review the size intended for them so that we get an accurate understanding of how the bike's intended size rides, not just most bikes in size large, then one in medium.
He's a tester, not a buyer.
Or maybe he would have found out that it worked well for him with the long reach. We'll never know.
I'm 5.9" on a Medium Warden and it works well for me. I probably would not be happy with a Small one.
what the f*ck did i just read? dan roberts, the king of logorrhea
I think some slightly longer chain stays on the larger sizes would be a benefit.
I am also 5’11 on a large but have a few spacers under the stem.
Might as well not even have posted the review. Trash
Extra slack effective STA
Shortened reach (30mm spacers)
For all of the technical reviews that Dan usually performs, it is hard to understand the apparent lack of intelligent decision making in selecting a size medium. I mean it looks like he just looked at the reach number in isolation and selected a bike based on that sole measurement?
Seems pretty obvious on paper that the reach would end up being much shorter to achieve suitable stack height and the seat post would have been extended to the max resulting in a much slacker STA.
disclaimer: I have never ridden a Knolly and have no bias either for or against the brand (though they are not particularly interesting to me)
As for the BB: the geo chart from Knolly says that the BB is either 348 or 338, depending on the setting. The reviewer put it in "slack" and measured: 344mm was the BB height. This is high - dare I say "very high" - for a 170mm, 27.5" bike. Want to compare? The current 130mm travel, doesnt-even-have-a-rear-pivot Specialized Stumpjumper has a BB heigh of 333mm. That is on a XCish trail bike with a 65.5 degree head angle and big wheels.
You got me on the Di2 thing. But in my defense, I'm just making a sarcastic comment on a bike forum.
To me, this bike is just bizarre. HTA from a trail bike, BB height in line with XC/Trail bikes, Reach of a downhill bike, Suspension Travel from an Enduro/Freeride bike. This reviewer felt pretty confident that this bike didn't do anything particularly well, and was best suited for a very specific type of trail. I would argue that the type of trail that suites this bike is actually better suited by other bikes. There are plenty of lighter 130-150mm bikes on the market that are better on the way up, and on the way down.
Weird... not sure how he measured that high of a BB, but my Chilcotin is 338 when measured on flat concrete. Which is low for a long travel bike. Lower travel bikes can have lower BB's because they don't drop as far as full travel or sag compared with long travel bikes... so you have to compare to other long travel bikes. When you do, it's one of the lowest.
HTA of 64.5 makes sense. BB is one of the lowest of long travel 27.5 bikes. Reach is long because head tube is short so it gives more options (long and low keep as is, add some spacers to shorten the reach and increase stack). Bike didn't "do anything well because he was riding a kids bike for his size so his review doesn't hold water for me... I'd like to hear is thoughts on how he feels riding a size large.
This review where they rode the proper sized bike makes a lot more sense - www.bikemag.com/2020-bible-of-bike-tests/bible-review-knolly-warden
I am also 6'2", and my current rig is a 170mm enduro bike with 487mm reach. For my preferred bar width, 487mm is quite long. I would not want my bike to be longer, and my previous bike (Yeti SB150) was 480mm and felt appropriate. So the ask from Knolly seems to be to accept a 500mm reach if you are ~6' tall, or size down to 475.5mm.
Simply put, this bike may not have worked for this reviewer's proportions. That said, even the Bike Mag review that you linked (I remember it) effectively said that the Knolly was pretty good, and rode like a trail bike despite having 170mm of travel. Of the bikes in category, none of the editors chose the Knolly as a favorite - but glad you like yours!
Looking at just reach on a bike with a really low stack makes no sense. It ends up being all about where your hands end up, and there is a ton of ways to vary that. If a bike is a bit short, less spacers and a tall bar, if the bike feels long, lots of spacers and a low-rise bar. The testers downsized to medium and then downsized again by adding a bunch of spacers. Going down in size 2 different ways likely, made the bike handle way different than intended.
The testers could have chose the large and then put a bunch of spacers and a flat bar and had his hands in about the right spot that he likes and given the bike a chance to be ridden in a state that Knolly intended.
Bingo bango.
2020 Capra AL 27.5...MSRP $2300
I have also never had an issue with loosening bolts once they have been torqued to spec.
The suspension behavior is nice, but not worth all the problems.
I also have a fender on the seatstay pivot but I ride through PNW winters so it's more for a clean(er) butt than to prevent wear.
I disagree with the author's take on the overall ride impressions. As other's have noted, sizing down that far is likely the culprit of his problems. It's no enduro sled but it does handle the rough stuff well while also being fun on jumps and whatnot. It also climbs better than what he made it out to be, imo. I've demo'd a Pivot Firebird (XTR/XT build) and I'd say the Warden is a slightly worse climber - I think mainly due to the weight difference more than pedaling efficiency. I'd say it climbs on par with the Nomad - maybe a bit better, even, but I didn't feel very comfortable on the demo Nomad so I probably just didn't have it quite dialed in for my preferences. (These demos were in Sedona and Seattle respectively.)
It's all around much better than the YT Jeffsy AL I had previously (no surprise there).
Frame wear and loam ledges are definitely an issue. Thankfully they're easy to fix. Slapping one of the bendy plastic mudguards on the back protects the linkage (and your bum!). Clear frame tape on the other bits. My chainstay wear is nowhere near as bad as pictured - I wonder if the derailleur needs more tension? I have a chainguide which might be helping . . . one of those STFU things would probably do wonders too.
My reverb lever also fell out so I'd throw loctite on that bolt as soon as you can. It needs regular venting too. Honestly I'd get a different post if possible. I plan to eventually replace mine. My rear wheel also needed spokes tightened after a few months of riding - isn't this expected of pretty much any wheel, though?
But yeah, overall it's a good bike. You can probably get better bang for your buck - this is a pricey "boutique" aluminum bike after all - but I don't think you'd regret buying it (assuming it suits the trails you ride). I even just bikepacked the Olympic Adventure Trail on it and had a blast so it's doing great as my quiver killer.
Feel free to AMA!
But what we do have are a very particular set of skills; skills we have acquired over a very long career, safeguarding Knolly reviews everywhere. Skills that make us a nightmare for people like you. If you let that negative review go to the "Trash" folder now, that'll be the end of it. We will not look for you, We will not pursue you.
But if you don't, we will look for you...
We will find you...
And we will make you ride a bike with a 69* HTA, tiny reach and no water bottle mounts....
Also surprised at this Con, considering it does have an image of being a proper smasher:
Cons
- Not the best option for flat out and rough terrain
I wouldn't buy one, but like the colour and don't mind the style.
Yes!! Even the linked PB article only deals with "load transfer from acceleration or deceleration", completely ignoring how the actual geometry and locations of the components can effect the suspension far beyond the load transfer and chainline effects.
For example, a huge part of why a 4-bar or SplitPivot/ABP usually feels way more active under braking than any single-pivot (including faux-bar) is because the rotational forces from the wheel going through the brake aren't directly trying to rotate the main swingarm and compress the suspension.
Those anti-rise graphics showing the intersections of pivots and CG and contact patches and such only tell a part of the story, just the weight transfer, completely ignoring the location of the brake itself. So sure, more info about anti-rise is great, but ignoring part of the equation is almost as bad as, or maybe worse than, not having the equation at all, since it then breeds misinformation.
I am just shy of 6foot and have a large chilcotin 26, A medium Delirium 26 and a medium podium 27.5/26 and can't fathom riding 2 sizes down. ( perhaps contacting Knolly and asking may have been a better plan)
And i have never been on a bike that is so controlled and fast going down(It climbs like a billy goat as well) Anyone not feeling that on their K bike.. may be worth a look at shock adjustment or changes. Not a fan boy but know how a planted suspension should feel and this platform has it in spades when correctly shocked and sprung. Mine are all coil sprung. One Avalanche, one Marocchi, one DVO.
Dan Roberts: Hold my beer, there is a Knolly in the shed.
Again, the short headtubes are a feature Knolly offers to give all riders choice. They go hand in hand with the very long reaches. If you want very long reach and love that low attack position, then slam you stem. Like modern but more "normal" reach... add a few spacers... and anywhere in-between.
But yes I agree, the suspension design does provide some magic that not many others can replicate.
I wish they could assign 27.5 reviews to someone who actually likes them. When the reviewer is a died-in-the-wool 29er fan, I find their review of any 27.5 bike pretty useless. Before reading, you know the con is it doesn't have 29-inch wheels...
Pinkbike should not have published this rubbish review. In fact, if I were Knolly, I'd make them re-do the review with a properly fit bike.
Finally where was he riding in the sea to sky that he describes the trails as "soft, loamy, undulating and starting to become just a touch more rooty and rocky as the soft ground breaks up and exposes them." I think he missed all the good trails when he came here. Perhaps he just lapped 1/2 nelson?
#Knollywasrobbed
Also, my 2014 medium Warden fits my 5'7" frame great and I have short arms and legs. I can't imagine being over 6' on a medium, even with new geometry from my frame.
I’m 6’2 and ride an XL and I feel like a circus gorilla on a medium anything.
The seat tube itself seems to be a really interesting and neat bit of manufacturing, I can't quite work it out from the photos as the resolution is not quite enough.
I THINK the upper half is a regular tube that is then welded into a formed, roughly hexagon section lower half that has a small tubular piece welded in, presumably with a recess at each end to act as the bearing seat for the orange linkage. And perhaps a closing plate over the top (weld visible above the orange link).
Its a really nice bit of design and fabrication, and allowing for the upper truly tubular section to pass all the way through past the bearing mounts to allow for full seat post insertion is a key move that many get wrong. Nicely done!
Pro’s - the climbing position is comfortable, I have bettered my old HD4 climbing times (seriously). It’s good going down.
Con’s- pretty lifeless and really does not hold speed on mellow trails. The short head tube puts you too far forward on steep terrain, it’s unnerving. I run 30mm spacers plus a 30mm rise bar to counter (and lose the nice reach.) finally the suspension is very linear. I had lots of pinch flats until I finally got the shock settings tightened up.
I think the reviewer should have been on a longer bike, but otherwise was pretty fair.
You just don't know what tf you're doing. A medium when you're that tall? How'd you get your job?
Also, medium? I just swapped my 2020 stumpy evo s3 (495 reach) with his large warden and it felt smaller - I’m 5’-11”
Does anyone know how long he road the bike for? Seems like a lot of paint missing off of the rear end.
I like the non kinked seat tube as I love mashing in a 210 dropper onto my bikes and I generally size down on bikes.
Finally, a rant about significant digits (“sig digs”): when manufacturers’ state lengths in mm it is stupid to report it to 1 decimal point (ie 475.5mm). It’s really stupid and is literally splitting hairs
There is no getting around the fact that the medium frame was a very unusual choice for a 6'2" rider.
It's also a lot more than just reach... sizing way down to a medium means he's not just riding too short of a reach for the way the bike was designed, but his stack is too low (as he talked about), his wheelbase is too short (talks about it being not as stable during high speed) and his seat tube is too short meaning he needs lots of seat post and will end up too slack of a SA... changes the whole perception of the bike.
Personally I don't like when reviewers stray from the manufactures recommended sizing for reviews. They build bikes and sweat the geo numbers in each size so that the bike rides and feels a certain way for that size of rider. When you sizing way up or down like that it messes with the feel and intentions of the bike and I think it clearly comes across in the review... he just didn't feel all that comfortable.
Sure, buying a bike for yourself and you know what kind of reach/wheelbase/stack/HTA/STA relationship you like, then ya, pick your size based on that. For a review... no thanks, I want to know how the intended design of the bike rides for intended sized rider.
The size large here would likely need 30mm spacers to get to an equivalent stack height and the reach would end up around 485-490 on a size large which is long but again not far off many other bikes.
So does that mean bikes were already pretty good?
Only company I know who doesn't follow suit is Pipe Dream
But if you are stuck between sizes I guess you could argue sizing down or up depending on use. Trail bike, down size ... bike park, upsize.
I know it's a touchy subject, regardless of how good the bikes are, but it's something to consider when purchasing a Knolly since they're [literally] riding that line between being in the red or black.
And then if the bit about not paying the bills is true, how do they manage to develop new bikes with a manufacturer who develops special tooling for them (as they claim for their gravel bike)? I cant imagine a manufacturer doing that for a small and unreliable customer.
@jlevandoski: Customer service - specifically Ken - was fine for me. He kept me updated on status (my parts kit was ready but my frame was delayed due to Covid) and answered my questions in a timely manner. I doubt they're "absolute garbage" - I'm curious what makes you say that?
If it doesn't feel sluggish, and bottoming is not really an issue (we all know volumes reducers can solve that if it does pop up with the extra sag), then what's the negative to more sag?
I thought that was a "spotted" again !
Jag off.
Maybe, just maybe, all bikes have become capable enough for technical alpine trails in British Columbia, and nobody has to ride Knolly just because they are BC based.