Review: SRAM's New Maven Brakes - The Big Brake
They say power is infinitely corrupting, but that quote doesn't really specify anything about slowing bikes down. In the name of that pursuit, SRAM pulled out all the stops to create the strongest mountain bike brake they've ever made: the Maven. It's meant to compete with all the strongest options on the market, and aims to best them. Parts of the system may look familiar, but the overall architecture has been overhauled to provide more power, resulting in a much larger overall footprint you see here.
All the power in the world is for naught if you can't control it, so the team at SRAM focused on giving the Maven a familiar lever feel and modulation characteristic.
All the power in the world is for naught if you can't control it, so the team at SRAM focused on giving the Maven a familiar lever feel and modulation characteristic.
Maven Details
• 4-piston caliper
• Tool-free lever reach adjust
• Contact adjust
• Mineral oil
• Organic or sintered pads
• HS2 or Centerline rotors
• Weight: 366 grams (actual, front caliper w/pads, hose, and lever)
• MSRP: $189-300 USD per wheel
• www.sram.com
• 4-piston caliper
• Tool-free lever reach adjust
• Contact adjust
• Mineral oil
• Organic or sintered pads
• HS2 or Centerline rotors
• Weight: 366 grams (actual, front caliper w/pads, hose, and lever)
• MSRP: $189-300 USD per wheel
• www.sram.com
A complete front brake with pads weighs in at 366 grams, which is about 68 more than the current Code Ultimate Stealth. Pricing is higher than the Code as well, with three tier options - Ultimate, Silver, and Bronze - coming in at $300, $265, and $185 USD respectively.
Four bolts for power.
Pads are now only accessible from the interior of the caliper.
Details
Thanks in part to the Eddie Van Halen splatter paint job, the calipers of the Mavens really draw the eye. They're noticeably larger than just about anything else on the market, and according to SRAM that's core to their function. All that extra mass houses significantly larger pistons, with two 18mm and two 19.5mm phenolic plastic pad pushers per caliper. The hefty shape also doubles as an effective thermal mass, taking longer to heat up and cool down, and ultimately delivering more consistent performance across long descents.
The levers and SwingLink arrangement have been made to feel familiar to that of the Codes, but are optimized to work with the increased power and rigidity of the Maven. This is apparently why we won't be seeing any carbon levers for the Maven Ultimates, as those sported by the current Code Ultimates are too flexible to provide the feel they wanted out of the new brakes. You'll see cast aluminum levers on both the Ultimate and Silver models, and a stamped aluminum variant on the Bronzes.
The Mavens sport a new pad shape - dubbed the XL - which come in two compounds that Code users will find familiar. The organic option is meant to provide a stronger initial bite and quieter performance, while the sintered offers better heat resistance and better wet weather stopping power. While I found myself exclusively using the sintered pads in Codes, I've gotten along well with both compound options on the Mavens, regardless of weather conditions. More on that later in the ride impressions.
One key detail to the Maven system is hidden from view, and that's the fluid within them. SRAM has consistently used DOT fluid in their brakes, with the exception of the DB8, but the Mavens are the first flagship brake to sport mineral oil as the hydraulic of choice. The explanation behind the change is fairly simple: they found it was the better of the two options when it came to achieving the performance and durability they were looking for in their strongest brake yet. With a service life twice that of the already robust Codes, that's a hard point to argue with.
Installation and bleeding follow similar procedures to the Code, with the notable exception of the fluid used. SRAM is very firm about the specific fluid used in the bleed, and insist that people only service the Mavens with Maxima Mineral Brake Fluid, to avoid any risk of damaging the seals.
Beefed-up pads for the Mavens.
Two new post mount adapters, no more bolt sandwich.
Mineral oil is now standard on the Mavens.
Power and Tuning
SRAM set their sights high and made the strongest brake they could, then provisioned for people to de-tune the system to make that power more usable and controllable. There are a few key numbers associated with the changes you can make to the system, and instead of gaming out the myriad options you could achieve, I'll just list those notable changes here. As a baseline, SRAM recommends starting with the smallest rotor your bike can fit, and scaling up from there as need be.
• Each jump in rotor size (i.e. 180 to 200mm) increases the mechanical advantage by 14%
• HS2 rotors provide 7% more power than Centerlines
• Centerline is 10 to 30 grams lighter for a given size
• HS2 rotors have better heat management
• Mavens produce nearly 50% more power than Codes, so plan accordingly
• Mavens require 32% less force at the lever to achieve the same braking power
A familiar lever assembly.
Still featuring SwingLink.
Same clamp, different bleed screw.
Performance
Again, there are three trim options available for the Mavens, but the highest tier does have a special limited run in the colorway you see here (insert TV ad guy hand wave). These hot red calipers are only available in the limited-edition Maven Expert kit, which includes a pair of brakes, a bleed kit, extra brake pads, a set of various rotor sizes, the required mounting brackets, and a Pro bleed kit. That kit retails for $600, and strikes me as a pretty solid deal if you're trying to fully buy into the system. That said, the lower price brake tiers offer the same power and ergonomics, just with different finishing hardware and less adjustments as you go down the line.
Ultimate Expert Kit, $600 USD.
Ultimate, $300 USD per wheel.
Silver, $265 USD per wheel.
Bronze, $185 USD per wheel.
Performance
I've had a set of Mavens on my personal bike for a few weeks now, and have had the time to run through a wide variety of pad, rotor, and rotor size combinations to hone in on a setup I prefer. As a baseline, my preferred Code setup for big bikes is to fit just about the biggest rotor I can in, often 200r/220f or 220mm on both wheels. I'm down on 200mm rotors now, and might almost prefer if I could fit a 180mm rotor on the back end of my bike.
That's the long way of saying these brakes are immensely powerful.
I've ridden other wheel-in-the-spokes brakes, and will do some brief comparison to those later, but the short of it is the firmness and sharp feel of these is more distinct than any other brake I've ridden in recent memory. Every other massively powerful brake I've used has some spongey feel to it, while the Mavens retain a very staccato feel that doesn't sacrifice your ability to modulate the stopping power.
The lever feel and power ramp is very similar to the Code, but you have distinctly more power on tap when you reef on the lever. Swinging to the bite point isn't the lightest or smoothest on the market, with a Code-like resistance to pull through. Brakes like the Hayes Dominion, Hope Tech V4, and the TRP DHR EVO all provide lighter lever action to get into the power band.
That said, I'm still a bit on the fence about how important that is, as I never found myself getting fatigue or arm pump that can sometimes come with brakes that have too much resistance. That's likely because that bite point comes up fairly quickly, and you can hover just a touch away at all times.
I'm currently running a bike with Saints on it, and for a brake that's had 10 years on the market they're still hugely impressive. The Mavens do feel more powerful, and are a little softer off the top than the Saints, though the difference isn't extreme when both are at operating temperature.
One of the more pleasant surprises with the Mavens has been a totally positive organic pad experience. Typically pads of that ilk - particularly on SRAM brakes - fall far below their sintered equivalent when it comes to wet weather performance, long descents, and general durability. With the Mavens, I've found just about all of those issues to be alleviated, making the organic pads a totally useful option should you be so inclined. My first ride on them even featured a 3 hour constant downpour, giving them a proper trial by fire in the wet.
All told, I really enjoy the Mavens, and am impressed by the power. The control and brake accuracy take some getting used to, but I think one quickly would if these were your only brakes. I do wish the lever had a lighter feel to it, but plenty of people will hardly notice the pull feel unless you've recently ridden the aforementioned alternatives. I'm not in a rush to get a set to put on every bike I have that's meant to go downhill fast, but they do offer performance and reliability that I'm looking forward to using on some of the nastiest and steepest trails that have been seared into my memory.
Mike Kazimer's Ride Impressions
Like Dario, I've had these brakes on my bike for a few weeks now, and have experimented with a range of setup options. I started with 200mm HS2 rotors front and rear with metallic pads, the same setup I'd typically run with Code brakes. In that configuration, the amount of stopping power was immense, and it felt like yanking on the emergency brake in a car with bald tires on a wet road – full skids were just a small pull of the lever away.
I'm typically a fan of more rather than less stopping power, but for me this setup felt excessive – I noticed myself changing my braking habits in order to avoid grabbing too much brake. Switching to organic pads made a noticeable difference – they weren't as on / off feeling, and even in the wet they worked well, which isn't usually the case for organic pads. I also swapped to Centerline rotors, another way to 'detune' the brakes a little further. With the organic pads and those Centerline rotors the brakes still feel more powerful than Codes without being too aggressive, which was the setup I was looking for.
As Dario mentioned, the lever action isn't the lightest – Hayes, TRP, and even Shimano require less initial force at the lever to get things going. It's a fairly minor detail, but if I had to choose I'd prefer a lighter lever action, since that can help with modulation by allowing for very small changes in how far the lever is pulled.
Pros
+ Immense power
+ Easy adjustment and tuning
+ Familiar feel and modulation
Cons
- Stiffer lever pull than competing options
- All-out power will be too much for some
- Weight weenies will whine
Pinkbike's Take
 | The powerful end of the mountain brake market has some very strong contenders right now, and the SRAM Maven is a welcomed addition to that elite group. The power is remarkable, the ability to control it is there, and the ubiquitously available tuning parts mean you'll be able to hone the feel in perfectly to your liking. |
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Guys that only work on bikes are very afraid of a fluid that can be wiped away with water, instead preferring to bathe their bikes in isopropyl alcohol instead.
But there are plenty of people who whine about „toxic“ DOT while adoring mineral oil (also „toxic“, just in slightly different ways). Switching to hydraulic oil as a medium might grab some additional sales.
The real advantage is that mineral oil doesn't attract and absorb moisture from the environment straight through the hoses, increasing fluid volume and leading to internal corrosion. There's a reason why only brakes with DOT fluid require rebuilds with new seals.
For everyone else, here's how to deal with DOT fluid:
1) Wear gloves
2) Don't spill
Note that step 2 also applies to mineral oil, chain lube, and beer.
In case if anyone forgot: youtu.be/oF2vAOmplUI?feature=shared
epicbleedsolutions.com/blogs/articles/dot-brake-fluid-vs-mineral-oil
DOT fluid absorbing water is by design. It absorbs water, maintains a high boiling point and prevents corrosion. Any moisture which enters a mineral oil system will sit at the lowest point (caliper) and boil at 100C.
If one feels they are lacking feel or performance, try a high performance DOT fluid like Endles RF650 or Castrol SRF.
The Level seems well suited to the XC crowd though so I would imagine ditching the underperforming Guides would be the way to go.
Regarding DOT having a higher boiling point, the great figures you see for DOT are the "Dry Boiling temp" and the aforementioned hygroscopy that was bugging me will also seriously lower the DOT fluid's boiling temp, and the better the DOT fluid the more hygroscopic it is (ie. 5.1 is the best fluid but the most vulnerable to moisture). In addition to that, while regular Mineral Oil does have a lower boiling point than the better DOT dry figures, apparently there is some black magic being done with some of the proprietary mineral oil formulas these days. Shimano has been quoting a boiling point (260c) for their mineral oil comparable to DOT 5.1 , and now I see TRP is touting even higher (270c), and that is before the DOT has absorbed any water.
Lastly, I know some people seem to think that the DOT absorbing water is a good thing as liquid water that makes it's way into the system in a mineral oil brake will not mix, sink to the bottom (caliper end) and boil at only 100c. I agree that would be a terrible situation, but I have only ever seen water end up in a hydraulic brake via hygroscopic absorption/adsorption, rather than bulk liquid water intrusion, as they are pretty well sealed. in addition, the mineral oil is hydrophobic, so it sort of forms it's own seal at the edges of all the interfaces, and thus resists capillary draw of liquid water.
Signed: Owner of both systems
It's not acid, and it's easy to work (spilts? No problem!).
Requiering new bleed system, is what makes them a PITA!
I have Shimano, Hopes, Guide, and Hayes... and now, Mineral Kit form Sram!
C'momm!
LOL this is so true. They’ll inhale isopropyl all day from bathing bikes in it but won’t touch DOT fluid or brake clean, etc. Some bicycle mechanics are hilarious.
As for the discussion regarding boiling point, doesn't really make sense to me either. What matters is how much heat a system can absorb before it fails to operate. High end bicycle component manufacturers like to design their systems to critically deal with whatever they're supposed to deal with. A fluid with a higher boiling point will allow them to make a smaller system that at the end of the day performs similarly as a system designed for the same purposes but with a lower boiling point fluid. Heck, I haven't ever heard of anyone overheating a BFO brake. As a home mechanic, shelf life of the brake fluid is an important criterium for me.
TL;DR: A heavy duty bicycle brake can be used with any brake fluid, as long as it is designed for that particular brake fluid.
If they haven't increased the amount of oil in the system and are using weepy mineral oil instead, this sounds about as well engineered as the continually failing reverb.
Mineral oil breaks down and releases gas bubbles at temperatures far lower than boiling point. Turning brakes to mush. That's why it's forbidden for use in automotive and why mineral oil brakes need bled after hard use. It's also why open bath forks need air bleed valves.
Water ingress and fluid boiling are a non issue in dot brakes. Not one of the people here has boiled a dot fluid mtb brake. But gassed up mineral oil happens to every gravity rider.
I don't doubt issues with manuf. as you point out.
Happens all the time on my moto.
hard to dispose of...pffft
It doesn't matter if the nylon gets saturated, because the DOT fluid will continuously pull the moisture out of the nylon. The only thing I've seen slow this process down to basically a non issue is braided steel lines. Although the liner is still nylon, the steel greatly reduces exposure to the environment, and who knows what plastic is over the steel, it may make a difference.
Anyone that's been working in bike shops has dealt with a rarely used bike with DOT brakes with pads that no longer retract. The system is suddenly over filled due to moisture absorption. Where do you think that water comes from? It used to happen all the time with Elixir brakes and their ridiculous reservoir system, but I've seen it with AXS road and Level and Guide, and Formulas (it's been a while) and old Hayes. When trying to even get the wheel to spin, I'd just crack open a bleed port. Without even pushing the pads back, the amount of fluid that squirts out is not insignificant.
Why are there so many people here who do not wear gloves when working on your bikes?
Brake fluid aside, so many greases are full of PFAS chemicals, god knows what’s in chain lube. Rockshox’ dynamic seal grease literally states it under the main product branding on the front. My weldtite bike grease has teflon in it. If not wearing gloves when bleeding is your criteria for a good brake then perhaps your should have another think about “mInErAl OiL iS sAfEr” or “i PuT iT oN mY bAbY”. If something is so resistant to water then how can you wash it off and go pick them up safely? I wear gloves to protect my kids from chemicals, regardless of the task i perform on my bike. The best solvent to clean up DOT with is water, so if you still get it on yourself, you can actually wash it off. Plus there’s no smearing, no smells, and if your contaminate your pads you can quite literally boil it out/off of your pads and rotors with, you guessed it, water.
It’s not perfect but DOT exists for a reason and a lot of them are useful to mtb home mechs.
I can bleed the later Magura Louise in about 10 minutes, the same for new Shimano. I have not experience of TRP so cannot comment.
I simply do not believe the type of oil impacts whether you have to leave it overnight for bubbles to migrate. The volume of oil and internal diameter of the pipes is so small bubbles are unlike to migrate without use or vibration.
- it’s easier to clean up (water)
- it’s very readily available. Hardware stores, servos, I’ve seen it in supermarkets before, auto shop and bike shops.
- it’s a standardised non proprietary product and therefore you can buy whatever and have a minimum standard ensured. If the bike shops closed then you’re all good.
We all know it’s toxic, and it might damage some finishes if you want it too, but I’ve noticed any issues I had in that regard have ceased since I stopped using contact cleaner and brake cleaner and switched to water for cleanup.
Whether one is better than the other is not something I’m qualified to determine. But for the purpose of procurement and use I think it’s better.
And also Hayes claimed that DOT was the only way to achieve the dominion lever feel and that for me is all I need to hear.
Higher up in this comment thread (and I'm not going to blame you for not reading everything that closely) I mentioned that my primary reason for using mineral oil being the shelf life. I'm no pro mechanic, it'd take me ages to completely empty a bottle of DOT no matter how small. So ideally, I'd buy the smallest bottle of DOT for every single bleed and dispose of the rest of it. My first hydraulic brake was a Magura Julie as that was simply the cheapest out there and still performed nicely. Soon after I got their mini-disc brake kit and not that much later I got a 1L bottle of their Royal Blood because I thought that was clever. Needless to say despite having ridden Magura equipped brakes pretty much exclusively in the mean time (with a short stint with the first generation of Shimano Saint) I still haven't emptied that bottle. It is still good though.
So yeah, that is it really. I'm no pro mechanic bleeding several brakes every day nor am I a pro gnar athlete looking for the greatest performance out there. This is what I have and what works for me so this is what I'll keep using for as long as it works well. And no, this isn't the latest and greatest. These are Frankenbrakes of three generations of Louise and even a bit of Marta.
For mineral systems, water doesn't get in there, so it's a pointless hypothetical. Going down that road anyway, oil is hydrophobic. The oil would be repelling the water, and the nylon could passively absorb it.
And while I stand behind whatever else I wrote last time (without scrolling up and checking what I wrote), I will say that this statement here is what I assume would happen based on indirect knowledge of what happens in other similar situations.
I'm happy to have my mind changed, but at SRAM prices (here in the UK) versus Shimano, it's unlikely I'd ever move from trusty XTs.
Don't even get me started on derailleurs...
Recreational riders can get away with anything. Get them hot and it all changes.
Dot 5.1 has a dry boiling point of 270 degrees c but that drops to 183 degrees c once it absorbs water .
Other mineral oils can vary quite a bit depending on their composition which is why I use a defined and controlled MIL spec certified fluid that has a controlled spec.
Shimano data sheet specs the boiling point of theor fluid as greater than 200 degrees c ,
magura spec sheet claims their mineral oil has boil point of 250 degrees c
and i cant find a spec sheet for the maxima mineral oil for the new sram brakes
This variation is due to all the manufaturers having theor own fluid specs which again is why i use a defined MIL spec fuid in my brakes as its a controlled and certified spec .
hope this helps
Any MIL-PRF-5606 or MIL-PRF-83282 fluid is fully compatible with shimano and other mineral oil brakes , its probably more expensive than shimano or magura fluid but luckily for me i work in aerospace so have access to large quantites of it so have been using it for years with zero issues
Shimano warranty supply was alright until the pandemic hit but I still consider them the least reliable brake on the market. That being said, I scored some cheap 4pot Deore brakes that are going on a cheap hardtail.
Defo gonna take a look at this 41 fluid. Though I've been using Pentosin for over a decade instead of Shimano's own mineral oil, and still never had an issue with the seals or bite point.
There’s not a huge difference in feel between my Shimano brakes and sram brakes to be honest. I’ve always ridden Shimano brakes until recently so it’s what I’m used to. I just adjust the barrel adjuster on my lever until it feels like a Shimano brake. Same with Hopes when I used them.
enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy
That's got test numbers for power etc will dig into it out of interest
Same principle applies to brake drums.
We're never the customers here, the bike brands are.
How many different price points matter here? 3? Maybe 4 at most? Having double digit amounts of (shit) brakes is absurd.
Sram make all brakes different,levers had various lever ratios. Mix match any sram brake is not possible in many cases
I blame cable tourism
goodyearbrakes.com/brake-pads/fundamentals/what-is-brake-pad-glazing
If the pads get so hot that they melt, like what that guy said, it makes perfect sense that when they cool, they'd be glazed over. You essentially cooked them to death.
The only criticism I have was that in a car park test the Galfer pads felt softer at the lever after bite point than the Hayes pads, but this is not relevant when riding as you would never pull that hard whilst riding. Oh and I wanted the bronze but they were out of stock when I bought, so got the stealth.
Had code RSCs, Rs and now these. I will recommend these to anyone I can. And bleed process is better, as despite the usability of the bleeding edge, I’ve had two different fitting introduce air into the bleed. With Hayes you displace the fluid with the screw at the lever/caliper eliminating the possibility of introducing air, plus you can flush the caliper independently. Then you can micro adjust the caliper alignment and the “contact point” adjustment comes at the minimum possible from factory, 2 sets of pads, a great bleed block and hose cutting spares. Check the blister shootout. They do not disappoint.
Why have you not bought them already?
Thank you for reading this far.
…
Another good option is MTX gold. Unimpressive when cold, but get them up to temp and they are incredible. Durability is supposed to be up there with metallics, though I haven't had mine long enough to confirm.
Dominions are so nice. These mavens might be too but Hayes beat them to it.
It's a bike not an airplane.
Hence the "they do not use DOT" part of my reply.
Here are the links again:
Shimano Mineral Oil
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/compliance/sds/hydraulic%20mineral%20oil-202008-ENG-GHS.pdf
TRP Mineral Oil
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://trpinfrastructure.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Shell-Heat-Transfer-Oil.pdf
DOT 5.1
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/http://www.finishlineusa.com/files/Brake%20Fluid%20DOT_US%20SDS_English_29%20April%202015.pdf
DOT 4
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://complexchemical.com/wp-content/uploads/DOT_4_BrakeFluid_SDS_120915_FINAL-1.pdf
Simply copy & paste into your browser, from chrome-extension to end of pdf, and it will bring up the PDF SDS reports for each.
I want to know how many of you have even purchased DOT fluid, let alone actually bled your brakes. There is no way that the majority of these commenters suddenly have adept mechanical experience and can bleed brakes.
Brake Fluid isnt battery acid I get it on my hands often and unless it spills on delicate paint if its wiped up right away it doesnt dissolve metal and flesh.
I would like to try these though as I agree that you can never have too much power. The Shimano's on my ebike are very powerful but inconsistent lever and also the power is all on. Wet condition riding can be interesting!
DOT Fluid also does work better in the cold. I've got Guides on my fatbike and they work much better in negative temps than the tektros that were on there.
For whatever reason I've found Sram stuff more consistent overall (in every temperature). I've had tons of issues with XTs recently...
I think they haven't touched the Saint's because they work... so why mess with a good thing.
I want max power with min effort, and zero free stroke.
+ Mineral oil
- Big inboard levers don't look great, makes cockpit look narrow and bulky
- Caliper looks like an unfinished prototype, thought they would clean it up for production.
In summary they seem to have chosen function over form, which isn't a bad thing but as a magpie like most mountain bikers i'm not sure i could put these on my bike.
My entire bike is painted EVH
So I’m considering but also hesitant because of the not actual matching
Hmm
m.pinkbike.com/photo/16077151
And the fact that Saint's can be had for much cheaper in the open market....
…Probably because they don’t slow you down and make you commit :p
I’m finally retiring mine as you cant easily get lever rebuild kits anymore, and now the feel like blocks if wood. Got a set of Mavens all set to toss me over the bars.
Because you can't just get power for nothing, despite how much Dire Straits you listen to. That's how mechanical advantage works: trade off force for motion, or vice versa. If there is more force at the brake for a given lever force, then the lever is going to have to move more. Sure, more pad surface area helps, but the other graph would help so how much comes from that vs more lever movement.
However, I agree that learning how they managed to make a brake feel good is the interesting part to me, because making it more powerful by increasing leverage is easy..
I did the same and just read initially but moments ago, I watched the video and it helped out
They all give you the same BS.
Sounds like a good upgrade to codes, seeing as these will probably grace most stock bike builds. But the heavy lever feel is the most annoying part of codes along with the huge lever throw.
The other day just as a test I tried pulling the levers 10x times in a row, but releasing before the pads actually slowed the rotor, The lever is so heavy I could feel my forearms warming up despite not actually doing any braking!
Try to find Magura blood in rural BC, or Costa Rica, or....but you can find DOT fluid at almost every backwoods gas station for $5 for a litre.
One of the biggest advantage, and still is the main driver behind DOT use in vehicles is its universal nature. I can find, and have Codes bled in and hour almost anywhere in the world, when you travel with your bike, thats a huge advantage. Trying to find Motorex mineral oil, Fack.
how do I find Shimano mineral oil in Williams Lake on Sunday, or Monday?
the universal nature of DOT brake fluid is a huge bonus
You know whats not open on Sundays, bike shops, Mondays too a lot of the time.
You know whats open basically 24-7, gas stations.
What is the benefit to mineral oil over DOT fluid?
(I still prefer mineral oil though.)
I guess it is helpful being able to rely on a source of new oil when you never know if your existing oil is getting too much water in it though...
I dont see the "benefits" to mineral oil, especially when there is a perfectly good, universally available fluid.
I dont carry an entire bikes worth of spares when I travel, especially internationally, and certainly not additional fluids. especially when virtually any other fluid that I might need can be found everywhere.
add to that, we run multiple bikes in my house, being able to keep inventory to a minimum is great, and not having to worry about having the right fluid in the correct quantities is a plus. Again, evenings and weekends are the time I prolly do most of my wrenching, so you can see the issue.
All in its not the end of the world, I'll adapt, I just dont see the issue with DOT fluid.
I havent had many other issues, other than der hangers in the past (UDH seems quite a bit more robust, and I can get by if the gears are a little noisy). In the past, if travelling by plane, I'd just pull the der and hanger off.
again, its not the end of the world, but why is mineral oil any better? Its not baby oil, its not really any more safe, and becomes a proprietary item that doesnt have (to me) any additional benefits.
But not proprietary blends of the stuff. I believe the MSDS for the blends is much the same a it is for DOT, so wear gloves. Outside of bleeding your brakes, have you had much contact with bike brake fluid that has been an issue?
si.shimano.com/pdfs/compliance/sds/HYDRAULIC%20MINERAL%20OIL-202206-ENG-CLP.pdf
Maybe its just a comfort and exposure level that I'm used to. I think the idea of DOT fluid can be scary for some, and that is what likely has driven the change.
Go ahead and put whatever you want in your brakes, but dont expect them to operate the same
The MSDS sheet is what it is. Mineral oil from manufacturers for brake fluid is not baby oil, but using the term presents a marketing assumption that its harmless. Just because the additive amounts are vastly different doesnt make it safer. 3% of arsenic in your morning coffee is prolly enough to kill you, as is 30%....
You should still use caution, and take the appropriate safety precautions when using a foreign substance that can be absorbed by the body. so since the appropriate precautions are the same, any potential benefit to mineral oil over DOT is far outweighed by the benefits of DOT (for me, your use case might differ)
Its a good watch, with loads of good info, and details the breakdown of the difference between the two systems (DOT and mineral)
but extrapolating anything from parts used by WC DH racers is pretty pointless, they are otherworldly fast, and incredible bike handlers. Add to that, that they get paid to ride what theyre told, and well, its pretty hard to pull any useful data from that.
The bike shop name, and screen name are great, good play on words
Thank you though, it struck me in a moment of profundity while I stared at my deconstructed workshop in my dining room, lamenting that I couldn't register my previous business name nor come up with something equally as clever.
I have successfully used Putoline fluid for a while, and its been great.
The issue comes from clowns using the wrong fluid, then going back and bitching about getting a warranty replacement, rather than taking responsibility. I think SRAM is well within their rights to deny warranty to anyone who didnt use the proper fluid in their brakes, dont you?
If you ride regularly, are heavier, or ride steeper/faster, any manufacturer is going to suggest that you bleed your brakes once a year anyway. Srams comment has been that if you dont ride often or hard, mineral oil has a better shelf life while stored (in bottle, and in brake system)
My experience with Shimano is the system takes on micro amounts of air with heating cycles (my assumption has always been it enters through the piston seals during the expansion and contraction during those cycles) and requires at least an air purge, pretty regularly.
I run XT's on my short travel bike, Codes on my big bike. I do significantly more maintenance on my Shimanos than I do on my Codes.
The air purge is pretty quick, done in 10 mins on the stand, but I prolly do that once every 2 months.
Annecdotal for sure, but my opinions, as are everyones, are based on my experience
I have had Codes and various Shimano brakes, they've all been "fine". Been on Maguras for a while now and really like the lever shape and they seem to need a little less bleeding, I don't use the blue blood oil or any of that nonsense and haven't noticed a drop in performance, so this seems like the "easiest" solution to me.
but.....
the basis of your comment was literally about the bottles on your bench, not the fluid in the brakes. so moot point maybe?
why do you need to test the fluid in the brakes? its going to have degraded to the point of needing re-bleeding long before its absorbed enough moisture, unless of course its sitting in storage in a humid environment, in which case, bleed the brakes anyway
All these systems take on a certain amount of air through the heating cycles through expansion and contraction, debris on the pistons, dust, dirt and general use. So the more they are used, the more they will require bleeding, if its not used very often, less degrading, less need for bleeding, mineral oil is preferred as it has a longer shelf life. Do I have that correct?
Until there is a definite empirical analysis that is done, I will keep using Shimano Mineral Oil for my Shimano brakes. Like I said in my previous posts, the biking industry is a Wild Wild West with everyone coming out with their own sauces and implementations for everything. Trying to compare DOT fluid like you have for vehicles is moot because the bicycle industry is not regulated for standards. There were some before but right now, every goddamned manufacturer is trying to outdo each other and setting their own proprietary "standards". The worse thing is when you have Youtube reviews that are not really reviews but just another promotion of product brands. No one is bashing products for being shitty and everyone is just trying to be nice to gain votes, popularity, and "influential" money. This is why products suck these days because no one is actually doing an object real review and trying to kiss the manufacturer's ass to for product promotion/sponsorship.
If I was a manufacturer I would research, Develop, produce, and sell the thing that I believe is going to work the best, and provide the best ROI. I dont know that my underlining intention would be to provide the general public with what THEY thought was the best, unless it drastically changed my potential ROI.
I get companies developing things that they feel works best for what they are developing, and doing that in tandem with fluids, or electronics, or any other thing, especially when it is an advancement of the product.
Maybe the Maven is that advancement, but I feel like the mineral oil was a choice based on consumer complaints about increased maintenance, which can be solved by the switch to mineral oil.
So be it, but I dont have to like it.
Side note, do you think products suck these days?
I feel like everything is pretty amazing, I cant think of even an entry level mtb product that isnt light years better than high end stuff from the early 00's. I have a 34lb, 170mm travel enduro bike, that is more capable than my old trail bike, and my old DH bike. It stops, grips, turns, pops, and rips better than anything i've had before. Its heaps more reliable, was comparatively cheaper, lighter, and more fun as well.
I can happily run Deore, or NX stuff, and its so much better than 9spd XTR ever was....we have come a long way, and its amazing!
I find that in the past, there were more thoughts put into the products and the durability is one thing that stood out. Nowadays, a lot of things are just pretty much disposable goods and pretty much companies have a planned obsolescence for practically anything (must have developed this from Sony's corporate model - sell them expensive to make products feel premium and then expect people to buy more of their products in 2 years!). Worst thing is, you have social media with social influencers marketing the shit out of everything. I think it's also due to making things as light as possible. So, everything gets smaller and thinner. Plastic also wears out faster, especially when they're used in internal gears.
Some things are better if they're researched as you have said. I like the fact that Shimano does the trickle down effect for their parts. However, their 9020 XTR brake levers - brand new - were really good until 5 years in and all hell breaks lose! There's no way to repair those expensive levers. So, now, I just get all SLX or XT brake levers. The new XT and SLX were trickled down from XTR from previous generations but with modifications to actually be able to take everything apart to maintain properly. People complain how slow Shimano release their part updates or come out with new models. It's because they actually do actual design and analysis testing, not just on CAD. They take a long time to test but when they release their products and updates, they're usually pretty solid components that last for quite a while. The older shifters and derailleurs, I still use from 30 years ago and they still run fine and smooth. I still run the 10-spd stuff and likely move to 11-spd once all my 10-spd components are all worn out and the parts are no longer accessible. As well as what you said about the lower end components, those are definitely impressive and this is all due to the trickle down effect that Shimano has made for all their stuff. Their components are like Toyota for vehicles.
I redact my statement, dude was not wrong, you didn't listen properly.
"They're gonna be the choice for the biggest bikes, ebikes, gnarly descents..."
Nowhere in any of the literature does it say "designed for ebikes".
If your bite point is soft, you probably got some air trapped in the caliper. Depending on the design removing can be quite difficult, best done when having the brake removed completely to be able to rotate the caliper freely.
If your bite point is hard then likely your brakes are dysfunctional in some way. Try thoroughly mobilizing your pistons, each one at a time. If the seals of the pistons get too sticky bc of dust/debris or wear of seal and/or piston, they slip way less, leading to a bigger dead stroke. Quick test to check this is pulling the brake hard and holding it for some time. If the dead stroke is significantly shorter now, the latter is likely your problem.
www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/hydraulic-disc-brakes/sram/maven-ultimate-expert-kit-47191#product-reviews-426291
Less rotor burn, more Saltburn...
sramnation.com/products/sram-maven-limited-brakes
You other brothas can´t deny.
That's when a bike rolls in with an itty bitty lever and
A rotor thing in yo face. You get SPRUNG.
Also I’ve heard Radics Kahas have more power feeling than Maximas which is interesting and would be pumped to see more reviews on them
Agreed, those Kahas look great bit looks like it is only a 1-2 person team working on them. Just worried about long term support.
I agree that could be a concern… bummer but justifiable concern. They sure are intriguing though! Been trying to convince myself to try a set for awhile now. I’m eager to!
I don't think the Mevans modulate poorly, but I'm also about 40lbs heavier than he is, so that likely makes a difference. They definitely have a pretty firm bite.
Obviously the Trickstuff aesthetics are way better, they look and feel like something that costs what they do. The Mavens get the job done, but the lever reservoir being so close to the bar is a real irritant, although the Trickstuff lever has its own issues due to the brace and lever adjuster, but it's a lot more minor. Bleeding the Mavens is a lot easier, as is installing the hoses, although the Maximas weren't exactly difficult in either regard.
Lever feel on the Maximas is way way smoother and lighter, even when the pads engage. It takes considerably less force to put power down, it's disorientingly light. The power delivery is smoother, but more linear and less ramped up than the Mavens and there is more deadstroke, which would be my main beef with them. I hate long deadstroke brakes and the Maximas have a pretty good amount, not excessive (there are worse), but not super short like Radics either. They are both easy to adapt to and learn, but the Mavens power ramps up a lot faster, which may be a good thing or a bad thing depending on who you are. The Maximas require a longer lever pull to achieve the same power, but the pull is a lot lighter, more linear, and less abrupt or firm feeling. The overall power seems similar but I haven't been out on any steep stuff yet to push the limits of what is there. I think riders could largely get by with a shorter lever position on the Mavens than the Maximas, at the cost of overall lever force, which isn't even in the same ball park, the Maximas are some of the lightest pull brakes I've tried (even more than the T4 V4).
The Maximas will work for just about anyone IMO, the only real gripe I have is the longer deadstroke compared to the Mavens. If you like rapid power delivery in a short pull, the Mavens will get you there, but they lack the super light and refined lever feel of the Maximas. The Mavens IMO are more suited to heavier riders, I think lighter riders will have a harder time dialing them in.
Honestly I like the Mavens a lot if you can look past the aesthetics and brand, but the Trickstuff have such a refined quality feel in comparison, it's really not fair to compare the two.
It is good to hear that the Mavens have comparable power riders with specific preferences can finally be satisfied. Codes are now being equipped on downcountry bikes (Epic
They are great for people who want the levers run close to the bars, not so great if you want the levers really far out and want some deadstroke between when you pull the lever and the brakes engage. The ramp up to power isn't as dramatic as the Mavens, but IMO it's more dramatic than the Maximas. I like them both a lot, but they have a different feel. I hear the new Kahas will have contact adjust, so that might help some and give more flexibility for people who want more deadstroke. They are super smooth though and have a great feel, I rode them for ~6 months and really liked them
The Kaha lever body has a brace on it that is kindof far out and can make positioning controls awkward though. It's not awful and you can work around it more than you can the Mavens, but the brace isn't as close in as the Trickstuff, for better or worse, but it can get in the way. I think this is true of most more powerful brakes though, all of them have some form of brace (Intend, Trickstuff) or a lever body that gets in the way (Maven). It's not unmanageable but it is a minor annoyance. It's not isolated to them, though, and every brake system has some irritant around lever positioning.
Bleeding the Kahas is super easy and intuitive, they use Bleeding Edge fittings, so it's dirt simple and takes basically no time at all. Trimming hoses, as with any braided hose, is kindof a pain but not awful, about the same level of effort as the Trickstuff. I would caution that getting the hose straight is a little tedious and sometimes you end up with weird kinks around the lever, but I believe newer versions use a rotating fitting that resolve this, mine did not.
One suggestion on the Trickstuff: The Maximas bleed instructions have a piston process where you let the pistons out slightly and bleed them then push them back in. I would strongly recommend doing this, my rear was fine but I got a ton of air out of the front doing this. They suggest a tool to do it, but I put two 2mm rotors together (for a total of a 4mm space) and slotted them into the caliper to work the pistons out, then zip tied it in place for the bleed. The pistons will move with the bleed more than other brakes I've used, so keep them there and in place until you are done with that portion of the process. If the rotors stay in place, then it'll keep the pistons from popping out.
Okay.
Also, I am a fan of bringing colors to bikes, but those limited edition calipers don't do it for me at all, and look like an aftermarket/home cooked product, not like it is part of the same set als the levers.
Definitely intrigued to try these and maybe back to some 180mm rotors front and rear like its 2015.
Lets hope these brakes work. (Fingers crossed)
These calipers make me feel like growing a mullet! If I had hair..
Tell me there will be color options..
Codes are plenty of power for most riders, but in truth the Codes should have been SRAM's trail/enduro brake and not their DH brake.
Actually, my setup right now is with Saints but I run them with 220mm rotors front and rear. It's not perfect but it works. At least I'm not burning rotors and pads anymore.
But after all, I just need to lose weight, I know... lol
Caliper stiffness can certainly be improved by using the space on the top. I don't know how much that matters, but Sram seems to think so..
betterbolts.com/products/fox-36-38-40-top-caps
Also, the switch to mineral oil?!? That's pretty stunning. I think Pinkbike should send a vile of Sram and Shimano mineral oil to Blackstone for an oil analysis and see if Sram's claims are true about how wonderful it is. Like Dario, I have a gallon of Shimano fluid in my shop and would love to use that instead.
I’ll see myself to the door.
What's the point SRAM?
sramnation.com/products/sram-maven-limited-brakes
www.jensonusa.com/SRAM-Maven-Ultimate-Stealth-Expert-Kit-Disc-Brake
thelostco.com/collections/sram-maven-brakes
It is quite possible that someone in the 210-250 lb range might have a 120-130 mm travel bike because they live in a predominantly fast flowy type trail area and that is what they ride the most. But they have the skills to book it on the fast sections and need the power to slow that mass.
Still nice to be able to rip 35-40 kmph off the trail speed without worrying about fade, pump or failure.
it's just because the market wants a mineral oil brake because many people are scared of DOT 5.1, it is not better apart from not being a paint stripper.
"Each jump in rotor size (i.e. 180 to 200mm) increases the mechanical advantage by 14%"
Wrong, scaling up from 200mm to 220mm for example is an increase of 10%.
Bashhard being downvoted even tho he's correct is everything wrong with PB's cesspool of a comment section.
A jump in radius from 100 to 110 is a 10% increase in mechanical advantage, a jump from 90mm to 100mm is a ~11,1% increase and so on.
@bro-LanDog yeah, the comment section is always up for a surprise haha
Some sort of EU regulation on toxic fluids is a pain in the ass so it’s cheaper to give you the consumer an inferior product. Can’t wait to have that inconsistent Shimano feel a month after I get them.