Downhill racing is an intense sport that requires extreme levels of focus from riders and specific equipment. When Norco relaunched their factory team after some post-pandemic hurdles they decided to try to give their riders the ultimate downhill race bike.
The design team behind the frame drummed up their theories on the best suspension system possible: a high-pivot, six-link linkage. Development has begun on a frame that Norco believes is capable of winning a UCI Downhill World Cup.
In fact, the first test mule frame, which was much less refined than this prototype, already achieved a top 30 result at the Mont St. Anne World Cup last season. From there, they knew the mule outperformed the Range and set about getting the team onto the six-link platform. Fast forward to July 6, 2023, when the team took part in a test camp aboard a freshly built prototype. A mid-season test camp might seem abnormal, but Norco saw a few reasons to take advantage of the downtime from racing.
First, the small batch of twelve frames pushed the manufacturer to produce a top-quality aluminum frame with high tolerances at every machined surface. The engineers also wished to receive real-world feedback on their suspension design, plus the hype around the frame also aimed to boost the riders’ morale and confidence. That seemed to do the trick, and the unnamed prototype went on to sweep the top-3 steps of the podium this year at the Canadian National Downhill Championships.
The design team and ridersThe people behind the prototype are composed of two groups, the
Factory Team and the designers. An all-star, all-Canadian list of team riders such as Mark Wallace, Gracey Hemstreet, and National Champion, Lucas Cruz were instrumental in providing feedback from their time spent on the Range. Feedback from their mechanics, Lewis Kirkwood, Jeff Hunter, and team manager, Darren Burns, didn't go by the wayside either.
Another paramount member to who provided feedback, and is literally putting the pieces of the puzzle together is engineer Kirk McDowall, who also happens to have a pair of Canadian National Champ titles on his resume. Kirk has to the skills to relay what's happening on paper with qualitative findings on the bike.
| The new DH race bike is like a trophy truck on two wheels. In the extreme rough it can carry speed and transfer very little feedback to the rider. On the other hand, the Range DH shines in more bike park terrain and provides a lot of cornering and jumping support. The progression adjustment built into the new DH race bike lets us easily bring back that feeling if the track calls for it.— Kirk McDowall |
Left to right: David Cox - Engineering Manager, Thadeus Tisch - Senior Design Engineer, Darren Burns - Race Team Manager
| We developed the suspension layout for the new DH race bike to build off the strengths of the high virtual pivot layout we use on the Range. The Range layout allowed us to achieve rearward axle paths suited to the demands of World Cup downhill with greater control over anti-rise than can be achieved with a high single pivot layout. We wanted to retain these axle-path and anti-rise characteristics on the new bike while having independent control of the bike’s leverage curve to tune curve shape and progression in isolation.— Colin Ryan |
The suspension system still uses an idler, but to tweak the kinematic properties independently, a six-bar design was implemented.
Hidden on a side profile angle, you can now see the small lower link (silver) that pushes on the dog bone link (black).
How is this prototype different from the modified Range?This refined test sled has a full 200mm of travel, is made of aluminum, and runs on mixed wheels only. Most importantly, this is an entirely new suspension design from Norco that builds on their findings from the Range. The process to get to this point has been an evolution of high-pivot suspension design that started with the Aurum HSP.
Although the new downhill prototype still uses a high-pivot and floating chainstay, like the Range, the lower link no longer rotates around the bottom bracket and directly drives the shock. Instead, the lower link mounted to the front triangle and the chainstay also drives a pushrod link that actuates a further upper link that drives the shock. That pushrod link rotates on two spherical bearings to isolate the link driving the shock from lateral loads
The Range is a sophisticated enduro bike with 170mm of travel designed to pedal uphill
and rally on the descents. Norco’s engineers felt that they had reached the limits of what they could do to maximize the Range when trying to transform it into a full-on downhill bike. Changing one element of the kinematics had a less desirable effect elsewhere. The six-link allows the suspension kinematics to be tuned with less dependence on one another. They’re keeping those specifics, like the leverage ratio, axle path, and geometry closely guarded.
| We’ve filed two patents based on the suspension layout and kinematic adjustment designed into the new DH race bike. The first patent applies to the overall suspension layout which retains the axle path and anti-rise characteristics of the high virtual pivot layout used on the Range while introducing a dedicated shock actuation link for greater independent control of the bike’s leverage curve. The second patent applies to the method of leverage curve progression adjustment we’ve designed into the bike which allows us to alter the level of support from the rear suspension in isolation without needing to alter shock tune, damper settings, spring rate or shock pressure.— Colin Ryan |
This adjustment at the forward shock mount is not a geometry adjustment but a kinematic position that goes hand in hand with an secondary dog bone link that is specific to the type of shock - air or coil.
Why aluminum?Norco opted for an aluminum frame for two main reasons. One is the durability against impacts, especially considering they only produced ten prototypes. Carbon fiber can endure high forces but often aluminum can take more of a battering. An alloy frame can be visually inspected after a crash, giving mechanics and engineers peace of mind, whereas carbon can hide the damage.
Number two would be the ease of altering angles and pivot locations as the prototype evolves. A carbon frame is confined by an expensive mold, another learning experience that limited evolving the Range in DH-mode.
On the outside, the frame looks smooth and solid, but a closer look reveals that huge pockets of material have been machined out to save weight, particularly, the shock tunnel and rear stays.
The prototype is no less complex than the Range when you start counting the linkage components and hardware, but Norco hasn’t burdened the team mechanics when it comes to wrenching on those bolts. Cutouts in the seat tube braces offer access while other features, like fully external cable routing make swapping frame members less of a chore. Even the shock placement was considered in order to cut down the mechanics’ workload.
Visually, the bike had to appeal to racers too. That challenged Thadeus to first meet the locations of the pivot points and shock placement, and work with the manufacturer to meet the strict tolerances - a tenth of a millimeter here or there can change the head angle or leverage ratio significantly.
Light metal, heavy machining.
| From the very beginning it was very clear; The team frame cannot be purely functional. It also needs to visually represent speed and carry the message that it is made to win races. Finding a way to do so, whilst packaging everything around Colin’s kinematics, hitting all the tight tolerances needed and providing tool access to satisfy our team mechanics, was a challenge.— Thadeus Tisch |
Ride Aligned expandedNorco left no stone unturned when it came to data acquisition. Building on their elaborate Ride Aligned morphological suspension setup, the engineers developed their own front and rear telemetry system, ordered up a fancy shock dyno, and even have a set of expensive scales to measure the rider’s weight distribution between the axles. Those bosses on the downtube aren’t for a water bottle, though. Instead, they serve as a secure mounting point for the brain of the telemetry system. Behind the stem, there’s also a GPS unit to track the bike’s every move too.
As it turns out, three of the four riders providing feedback on the platform are nearly the same height so only one front triangle was needed for Mark, Kirk, and Lucas. The geometry differs from any production bike sizing and offset headset cups tailor the fit for each one of them.
Through testing, an air shock was largely favored, in particular, a prototype from RockShox. One reason for this was the ability to minutely change the spring rate, instead of the large jumps between coil springs. Another consideration was the percent error associated with the true spring rate of coils which can have a pronounced effect on lighter riders like Gracey.
What about 29” rear wheel options?Norco was also open-minded about the testing. What falls short for their downhill requirements might actually be a positive attribute for trail bike development, and vice versa. Take for example how adamant Norco was about using a 29” rear wheel on the Range. They explained that the frame's kinematics and balance were designed specifically around the larger wheel size and shouldn’t be meddled with.
As the trend of mixed-wheeled downhill bikes began to rise, Norco set out to test back-to-back between the two rear-wheel options. A 27.5” rear wheel made sense for Gracey Hemstreet as a smaller rider. The other tall riders on the team agreed that the smaller wheel allowed them to make quicker direction changes. That solidified the decision to base the kinematics for the prototype on a mixed-wheeled platform.
| In the past I have ridden full 29” downhill bikes but it’s usually because of some other limitation. With this bike being designed specifically as a race bike for us, it was possible to go with the preferred 27.5 rear wheel without having any other compromises.— Mark Wallace |
Future plansFrom here on out, there’s no production scheduled for this frame. Norco’s goals are aimed at creating a platform for their racers to get down the hill as quickly, and confidently, as possible. They’re taking a “Formula 1” approach to developing this bike on the fly throughout the season and gathering valuable feedback along the way.
We’ll keep an eye on the development of the bike and continue to report any findings.
it's really bad in AL frames due to movement during heat treating. a PF shell needs to be within .0001" bore alignment, roundness and bore size. It's literally impossible unless it's all machined after heat treat, which adds literal HUNDREDS of dollars of cost to the completed bike.
Youre tolerances are a little exaggerated, but I hear ya.
If a BB can be threaded post welding/heat treating, so can a PF BB shell
12mm of adjustment, there are loads of others.
Typically used to tension chains for singlespeed setups
wheelsmfg.com/eccentric-bb-for-bb30-24mm-shimano-cranks-black.html
if an actuator bore on a 777 aileron motor pivot was off by .0001", it would be rejected.
That said, no one in the bike industry can or will pay for this level of accuracy, because it doesn't need to be....why? because a threaded BB can be off .001 and still not creak or flex.
Trick stuff also makes an eccentric for BSA shells (though with much less adjustability).
Sure, there are also people with creaking press-fit BB's, and if given the choice I would certainly opt for a threaded BB, but acting as if it could never work is a bit off from reality.
I would like to see the spreadsheet that leads bike manufacturers to choose press-fit. What is the increase in retail price of a full bike with threaded BB shell vs pressfit?
I got a Trek Farley with press fit BB, and after messing with the cranks it would creak. Turned out I had to toghten much more (around 40Nm I think) and the creaking disapeared.
I also had quite a hard time untightening the cranks in the first place.
There’s many different options out there, it was just one example
for a bike not built to aerospace standards of precision(because we already complain about $13,000 bikes, $75,000 bikes would be ludicrous), Threaded is the solution. end of story. T47 is going to take over, btw.
Threaded BBs can tolerate a lot more misalignment than a PF can. That is the reason why it is the answer for bikes. The level of precision it takes for to get a PF to run well(not just squeak free, but smooth, no binding, no galling of the axle/bearing races, minimal drag, etc) is seldom accomplished in the bike industry.
as for facing, that is where the Threaded is most tolerant of a cockedup shell. but sure, it's a good idea to check it.
ask me how many PF frames I have warrantied due to piss poor BB shells? it's at least a dozen, likely 20 or so in the last 5-6 years.
It's not my imagination, its not anecdotal. It's me, and lots of other industry professionals opinions.....including people that work at companies that produce bikes with PF!
Also
Your threaded BB cups have..... Press fit bearings...
from your link: "When retaining compound or threadlocker is used on carbon fiber frames or components, *adhesive* primer such as Park Tool AP-1 must first be applied to all component, fastener and frame surfaces. Failure to do so could result in permanently bonded parts."
now, is it a glue, or is it not a glue, Pal?
"Gluing" in place sounds like it's permanent, which the retaining compounds I mentioned are NOT. The purpose of park tool rc-1 and loctite 641 is to fill microscopic holes. We can mince words and argue about the definitions of what glue is, but it is not permanent, and thus using it to press fit in bearings and bbs is a really good application and not a "bodge."
Maybe you should go work for Park Tool or Henkel corporations?
being as generous as I possibly can here, but at the very least, using retaining compound, aka glue, is a fix to a defective/low quality frame.
And I wouldn't buy another bike with press fit bearings - it's the reason my Optic needed a warrantied front triangle.
Mtbdialed is talking about tolerances of 3µm (.0001") - not applicable in mountain bike tech, at least on BB's
Pressfit is a superior idea, with impossible tolerance needs.
the issue with a PF bb shell isnt static size tolerance. if a shell were within .0001 of round and alignment, it would be fine with .001-.003 size spec. the issue is most shells are .01-.03 out of round and sometimes .05-.1 out of align. no fixing that shit.
Every bottom bracket I ever had to replace on my bikes, threaded or PressFit, failed because of water ingress. Maybe if I lived in a desert and rode huge distances every day that would be different.
I guess your 'mediocre' is my 'good enough'.
That said, I still prefer threaded. There is simply no advantage to PF, while installation/removal is more cumbersome and there are certainly frames that creak. But if I had the choice between two identical frames, one with pressfit(similar mediocre quality as my current bike, no creaks) and one with BSA, I wouldn't pay more than 100 euros extra for the BSA option.
And regarding flex of the BB shell.....more than .0001 or so of lateral or biaxial flex in a shell, under normal human output(track sprinters and Dangerholms thighs withstanding), would likely mean some engineering malfeasance.
Would appreciate any frame builders chiming in. How are threaded BB shells (for instance) installed at factory - frame heated first?
cheers!
You know what they say about internet engineers, and you definitely came through...
www.mtbdialed.com
I like how he’s saying all this ridiculous stuff about machining this and loctite is glue that, yet he willingly spent money on an Eminent Haste frame.
lastly, I don't know what you think you are proving by digging through my buy/sell, other than the fact I so clearly have your jimmies rustled.
it's real small dick energy shit, bro.
yes it increses cost but also reduces complains and issues a manufacturer has to waranty(its in the 2 digits not 3).
nicolai does it
So i am a mechanical engineer(per degree from my university) and at work i design and calculate structures so im a Structural engineer
like if you had studied math (youre an mathamatician) and work for a bank as an analyst youre also an analyst
any chance we can get a remodel in this bitch? it's pretty sad in here....
the more he's right, the more butthurt you all get,
a shoutout kids - ego doesn't fix things, using brain and working does.
i'm going to write a book: how to attract stalkers? content: insult them on the internet. ditto
next up, cuban-b is the pope.
Mtbdialed has a legitimate bike mechanic business and I think everyone should know that. And, in all honesty, I'm sure he has been wrenching on bikes long enough to know what does and doesn't work. From looking at his website, it looks like he does a damn good job of being a bike mechanic and I think it would be a privilege to let him wrench on any of my own personal bikes.
I'd like to offer my apology to Mtbdialed for arguing about something as silly as retaining compound. I'm sure you've used it before, and if it gave you bad results, then I can see your reservations about it and it being a bodge. In addition, I've done more research and it is, in every classical sense of the word, glue, you are right.
@cuban-b @Tayrob @JasperTS @onawalk @baca262 @Bro-LanDog
I work with mechanical engineers, structural, civil, etc.
The mech engineers I work with do not do structural engineering, they are not licensed or insured for anything like that
@JasperTS If I work on my truck in the driveway, am I mechanic?
If I pull a stitch out of a cut, am I a doctor?
Nope, similarly, simply because you do a calculation for a structural load, youre certainly not a structural engineer. that comes with schooling/education, and that little pinky ring they hold in such high regard...
I translated Strucural engineer straight to german like a engineer who designs strucures(like chassis, aircrat cells, building jigs.....(those parts which hold everything together(like a frame in the case of a bike for example))) (which is mostly done by mechanical engineers). deepl showed my hat structural engineering in english is close to civil engineering(someone who designes buildings)
so i am not a strucutrale engineer but a engineer designing structures(but not those made of concrete)
I just didnt quite understand what your point was.
Is life a bit of a struggle for you?
If its youre job to repair trucks i think youre a truck mechanik(in amerika(some countries require apprenticeships(and some tiltes are protected)))
i think you got thinks like an engineer by trade (this concept does not exist in germany so im not sure)
Now i got an idea how to explain it
the job title of a friend of mine would translate into english something like calculating engineer and i know many projekt and also process engineers. non of those people got a degree in calculating,Process or project engineering(as i dont thing those exist as degrees from university) they are mostly mechanical engineers. so by working in those field they are both(mechanical and calculating/projet/process engineers).
syn.bike
Just seems like complexity for the sake of.
Probably a beast to ride, but still too complicated.
Norco said no no way
Turns out they don't need any testing feedback from a mid-pack guy who races (participates) in Masters DH.
So I may need to stalk Mark or Lucas and make one disappear.
I am very much kidding of course.
.
It's feels like we're being treated like their exact buying demographic
Q: Why do people here prefer aluminum construction vs. carbon layup construction for a DH frame?
Having been around the gravity side of MTB for almost 20yrs, I've seen the shift in preference from alu to carbon and now back to alu DH frames. From my perspective what the consumer gets out of a purchase, looks like this:
Alu Frames
Advantages:
- Typically lower production cost for consumers vs. CF layup, tooling, and frame molds.
- As an extension of the above; easier to make adjustments and offer options to the consumer.
- Currently aesthetically pleasing to the consumer.
Disadvantages:
- QC and mfg tolerances can be problematic; multiple pieces must be assembled with precision and accuracy.
- Typically heavier than an equivalent CF offering.
Carbon Fiber
Advantages:
- Consistent mfg given accurate tooling and frame molds which provides higher quality/value for consumer.
- As an extension of the above, possible to tune flex of frame using CF type, layup, and resin properties which provides options/performance for the consumer.
- Typically weighs less than an equivalent alu offering providing performance for consumer.
Disadvantages:
- More expensive to mfg than alu.
- More difficult to make adjustments and offer options.
- Currently not aesthetically pleasing to the consumer.
So given that perspective:
1. What am I missing?
2. Why the preference from your perspective?
Just curious - because I sense ignorance on my part and want to learn something.
Reality is they don’t have to invest in mega cost tooling for a short run bike and cold end up being cheeper price.
Typical owner gets a bike they don’t need to be so careful with.
They all use their wind tunnels all year (well, not during the 2 week summer break) but there’s a sliding scale depending on championship position to determine how many runs they can do. There are hundreds of engineers working back at each of the teams’ factories who also work with CFD but that’s also limited by championship position.
Just driving up the cost of the other bikes to offset the costs of producing them .
Yes I know they use them as a test bed mule to trickle down tech to the other models
Ps the frames ride like sh*t and flex like a wet noodle. But marketing has a way to spin that.
Also, based off what data do you have that indicates the lower link will snap?
link looks like a stress point with that bolt being the fulcrum, considering norco has a bad rep, i wouldnt trust it
I can tell you that even in Moto bikes are still being refined and developed.
I had a last get YZ450F, and now i have a 23 model, literally night and day, besides the engine charicter, in a blind test, you wouldnt even know they are siblings. New chassis, and suspension setups, flex charictaristics, all in the pursuit of chasing hundredths of a second.
I for one think that bikes today have never been better. Almost every brand is producing products that are actually worth while. Everybody seems to complain about costs of new bikes... Reality is high end bikes are a luxury, not a right. I agree, you can get on probably just fine with a bike that's a few years old and is still somewhat relevant.
Regarding Norco having a bad rep, I don't think past errors should be held against anybody if they are willing to improve, Rock Shox was dog shit a few years back, and now I'd be hard pressed to say that they aren't at the top of their game.
Marzocchi was once THE brand in mountain biking suspension. I even had a made in Italy Shiver... Absolutely brilliant fork, but not by today's standards, and where are they today? Fox's B team.
Bro, you need to get help, all your comments are negative. Just quit.