Normally the spring is a hectic time in the mountain bike media world—endless travel for trade shows and races and press camps. But this year is different, and we're all staying close to home. So, just like every other group of cooped up millennials, we're kicking off a podcast.
Hosted by Mike Levy and featuring a rotating cast of the Pinkbike editorial team and other guests, the Pinkbike Podcast is a weekly update on all the latest stories from around the world of mountain biking, as well as some frank discussion about tech, racing, and everything in between.
That said, we're all sick of hearing about Coronavirus, so for this first episode we're skipping the news and kicking things off by jumping straight into a discussion about value bikes. What did we learn from our
Field Trip to test inexpensive bikes? Why are some bikes so expensive? Where should product managers be putting their resources? What are the best parts to upgrade?
Available on
Apple Podcasts,
Spotify,
Google Play, or wherever else you get your podcasts.
THE PINKBIKE PODCAST // EPISODE 1 - WHY ARE BIKES SO EXPENSIVE?
April 2nd, 2020
Levy, Kaz, & Brian have a frank discussion about value in the bike industry. Let us know what you think! What topics would you like to hear from us on? Would you be interested in a video version? Do you enjoy it this candid or should it be more scripted?
No brand is holding you at gunpoint forcing you to buy that 10k Specialized Enduro.
Right next to the Enduro are those amazing Vitus and Honzos, recently teste here at PB
Let's look at a pair of Hope pedals, let's say at $150. Hope manufactures in house, with significant overhead from facilities and a lot of machine tools. They also have to pay their employees an UK level wage, as well as UK level taxes. This, while only manufacturing, AFAIK, and selling for their name brand. They also need to include some features to get market differentiation, which also increases costs. Then you have their margin, and then again resale margins.
Also, making things light and still strong is very hard. If dirt bike product companies were as devoted to lightness as companies in the mtb industry, I'm sure you could cut the weight of a dirt bike down by 30%, but at a 3-4x price jack. For mtb lightness is necessary, for motorcycles it's not
Because that 300$ frame manufactured in Asia goes to Europe or the US by teleportation and sells by itself...
Because every cent someone charges over the manufacturing cost is attributable to "greed"...
Because last year's frames and bikes that are sitting around don't take any warehouse space and respective costs and will sell just as well this season, no need to move them on...
Don't get me wrong, not implying that's your case specifically, but I'm amazed so many times the people asking for higher base wages, more regulations and more state programs that demand higher taxes (not making any judgement about those, not getting into politics here) then are the same screaming that something they want is too expensive because of "greed"
Not to mention procurement, testing, logistics, legal and insurance needs, or the relatively small market size of the sport among plenty of other actual, real-world considerations...
and i rarely even see those 10k bikes. even though it seems that everything is so expensive there are tons of riders on 3k bikes, not to mention real budget bikes much cheaper. yeah i still see plenty of yetis. we're shown the top of the line but most users aren't on them. margins are irrelevant without the context of volume and cost of doing business which most of us don't know. the margins that i've seen don't seem that high in general especially as most people i know in the sport aren't making fistfulls of cash.
man the genius is in the d2c where they have the potential for higher volumes and make a higher margin selling to us directly than to a shop. some say d2c prices are increasing now that those brands have built an image, proven their bikes, and have a customer base, but look at how much value is packed into the $3k Jeffsy with a full carbon frame. more impressive are the traditional brands that are attempting to compete. SC offers a bunch of aluminum bikes still which is awesome tho not specced as well, and Ibis has a high performing alu bike with nice squishers at $3k.
ripped off? that's just everyone's choice. some people value that shiny turquoise frame w/ gold slippery coating on the shock. I don't so no sweat off my sack. so many high performance aluminum frames around the 2k mark as a good starting point to a build. or complete bikes at that price that are multiple times better than the 2k bikes from the 90's that i lusted after when i started riding (and having tons of fun on a $500 bike). this sport is as expensive as you want it to be.
Looks like REI is renting it too: destinations.rei.com/arizona/rentals/bikes/specialized-pitch
Advent is dumb cheap wholesale and it shifts well.
Its also amazing how much money you and many others seem to think is made in cycling, especially by engineers. There is a reason I no longer work in the bike industry, lets leave it at that.
No one outside of the big 3 are getting rich in the bike industry.
The drivetrain example really bothers me. Some people seem to be trending toward something desirable. Let's make 11speed! Let's make 12 speed! Do you need those speeds? No. Do you want the range? Yes! Okay, if you can do 11-50 with 10 speeds, do that. Why? Lighter, can probably make it cheaper, can probably make it last longer. Do it. Industry: Here's a gold 12-speed drivetrain. Why? Why does every silly aspect of the company need to be updated every year? To have more excuses for charging more? Oh, we HAD to have this inconsequentially better product which required re-tooling our entire process and making new molds plus new graphics and materials. No, you could've stayed the same and offered the consumer a very similar product for the same price. Oh what's that? There wouldn't be a new incompatible part? Oh no!
I'm being a bit facetious but I'll stand by my point. If you're a service-providing company the story isn't "Oh, well the new year rolled around so we had to buy all new machinery so our service will now cost 40% more." It's more like "Well, we need to charge X amount to pay our necessary staff and pay off this nice equipment that is necessary to provide our service to the quality which people expect." What we aren't getting in the bike industry is 1.The quality we want 2. For the price that's reasonable. Why? Rich people. It's a rich sport, just like skiing is. A good fraction of the market will pay more for silly stuff so the market caters to that consumer because they can. In the process, a lot of other stuff gets overlooked. It's just about where the values are for everyone and mine (and I feel some other people's) values don't line up. Wow I've been wanting to rant about this. Thanks for bringing the discussion to the table.
And the top end bikes are not like Farraris and Lambos. That’s some B.S. the bike industry tells us to get us to spend more on them.
i love how the highest end cassettes are the ones that wear out the fastest..... at $400 a pop. sick brah, your cassette is so light. yeah drivetrains are a good example of silliness but holy crap you can piece together an slx 11 speed drivetrain for cheap as hell. add an xt shifter and you've got a great setup for 'cheap'.
with some of my friends our bikes are worth more than our cars and we're okay with that tradeoff. not rich, just prioritize our passion and lifestyle appropriately.
blasphemy!
So cars have a motor, remove them from the discussion then. Use my other example...wine. Are there not $5 bottles of wine? Are there not $5,000 bottles of wine and everything in-between? In almost all industry there are super high-end, fancy products that you may or may not think are worth the cost; bikes are no exception.
Source : ShareTheMeal is an app from the World Food Programme that enables people to "share their meals" with children in need. It costs US$ 0.50 to feed one child for a day.
www.bikeexchange.com/a/triathlon-time-trial-bikes/pinarello/fl/bradenton/pinarello-bolide-tr-red-axs-404-tubeless/166750947?variant_id=72927395
And if it is a SRAM cassette you can replace just the aluminum cassette cog when/if that wears out before the rest.
Bikes aren't all about perception. If you've got a new, $2000 bike, it's not going to perform as well as a properly specified $6500 one. It's going to be worse in just about every way, and anyone could tell. The really big thing is, once companies have gone through the paces of making the higher end products, they only cost a little more (if any more) than some of the mid-level offerings. The big problem is that companies have a "comprehensive product line" if you will. We've got a new damper that costs less to make but works better? Oh shit, gotta make it more expensive than the last one. In contrast, you could instead have a bike company have two items in their lineup. Get rid of the super-cheap option that still needs the same tooling but uses shittier materials (looking at SX Eagle [it might work, but GX is better]) because the materials really don't add much to the cost in the specific case. Bring GX down below NX prices and call it a day. Maintain your super-high-end pay-for-bling scenario. I'm not saying get rid of that. I guess what it comes down to is that smart design doesn't cost more. You don't pay for geometry (except incrementally over time). Why pay for a derailleur that's worse when it doesn't cost any more to make than one that's an industry standard? Yes, there are real differences in price but I feel that the point is communicated this way. Wine is still a bad comparison, sorry. If you want to compare crazy nice bikes to wine, compare a bike that's gold-plated and signed by Lebron Jacuzzi to a bottle that has the Queen's lipstick on it or something. This is a really fun discussion and I quite enjoy the stupid remarks I'm making, so if you took the time to read this dumb text block keep 'em coming.
To your point - it's fun to be a part of a sport where your average person can afford world class equipment.
I was going to write more but then I got bored and decided to rant about drivetrains in general instead. You'll see me comment this same thing over and over in the future and you'll get very annoyed.
*10 speed drivetrain
*11-48 cassette->no, it's not unreasonable, yes you can do it
*Make 2 versions only
*Make them compatible
*Make one $200, medium weight (Cassette, chain, shifty)
*Make one $600, light weight (Cassette, chain, shifty)
Man, I just want it to be about people buying your stuff because it works the best and less about buying the new fancy thing because you can. Sorry I lost my trajectory in this comment stream so quickly.
I'm with you. One of these companies should just develop a 2 price point 10 speed range and then let all the tech from the fancy stuff trickle down to it. 11-48 is totally possible with 10 speed. 10-50 is possible especially if you allow a funny big jump into the highest gear, and view the 50 as the bailout.
With current Shimano stuff their 11 speed shifters will shift the 12 speed derailleurs perfectly, from my understanding. It makes doing a wide range 11 speed system super easy, and potentially shift with no compromises.
I was thinking 11 or 10-48 (or even just 46) on the 10 speed to reduce pie-plate-weight and structural issues. I feel as though that range is never needed unless you're riding your MTB on the road, downhill, which I heard is a sin anyway. I'm well good with just my 11-42 and 32 in the front 9 speed, but I could see if you did a bunch of all-day climbing how a 30 in the front would be nice. So the range I think with 11-46 has gotten to the point where it's all even any racer would need. If you're a watt-house, slap a 34 (or 36) on the front and be good forever. If you're a weak person like me, put a 30 (or even 2 on the front and never worry about your top end because you aren't the kind of rider who is going to miss it. This is my main problem with feeble eagle anyway. The 12 speed is dumb but the range is also not needed. Sure, it's nice or whatever but people don't know that they would rather have SLX 11-46 10 speed that's lighter, cheaper, and shifts better. I wish we could have wide range 10 speed. Key: Fewer speeds, less weight; fewer big rings, less weight. Or, more durability for same weight. And weight by the way does matter to people. That NX drivetrain really is heavy. It works fine, but it is heavy. Another big deal for me would be having to replace a $110+ derailleur when it gets frigged by a tiny stick. It all adds up. I'm just spewing thoughts left and right at this point.
After looking it up, it also appears that 10, 11, and 12 speed Shimano are all cross compatible. So you are in luck. Just run the 10 speed shifter if your choice and then throw a range appropriate derailleur on there and you are set to go. You can then pick up a 11-42 Sunrace cassette for $50 that only weighs 360 grams and have a pretty sweet set up. The Chinese brands like Bolony and ZTTO make huge range cassettes up to 11-50 10 speed, that struggle if run with 10 speed derailleurs, but apparently do much better when using range appropriate derailleurs.
SRAM is only compatible between 11-12, so dreams of a 10 speed wide range is more complicated with them. I do like how SRAM has more cross compatibility between the road and mountain stuff though, with my 105 shifter moving an XT derailleur I had to use a Tanpan to get them to play nice.
Okay I went down this rabbit hole...
So there are several people saying SRAM 11 speed shifters will shift Shimano 11 speed derailleurs as well. So with the previously mentioned compatibility that should mean that Shimano Dynasys (10,11,12 speed) anything, will work with any SRAM X-Actuation(11-12 speed). I think that means I have something to try tonight #1: run my XT M8000 derailleur with my X1 shifter. Also means you could do some cool crossover stuff in general.
Done for now, might order a silly Chinese Cassette 11 speed and see if my X1 shifter will shift a slx 12 speed derailleur on one of those well. Then obviously use a YBN chain so that there are no components that are recommended to work together by the manufacturer.
I just wish I got along with Shimano shifter ergonomics or I would definitely tryout a 10 speed shifter running a 12 speed derailleur. But I actually want really big range so not a biggy for me, actually really nice to be able to run a great piece like an slx derailleur with a shifter I get along with, like my X1 shifter.
Apple
Apple is up and running, thanks!
Hey guys, I generally listen to podcast over a loud speaker at work since I’m usually in the shop by myself, with your current microphone setup Levy’s quite muffled compared to Brian and Mike. I’m can only hear 2/3rd’s of the conversation clearly. Not a huge deal I’ll just listen to it on the way home, but just a heads up.
Anyway, my main point about economy of scale was related to mtb completes compared to motos. Having said that, Guerrila Gravity seems to be taking a big bite out of high end carbon frame market by offering a bad ass frame for 30% less than most big brand frames.
Compare the price of what the actual AMA pro motocross racers are riding to a $10k mtb. The estimations are the AMA pro bikes are around $50k (or more).
I do not care if you are Specialized, Renthal, Chris King or a one-off custom builder hipster who wreaks of bong water. It is in the industries best interests to keep margins where they are. At any case, "keystone" is LONG LONG past thanks to on-line resellers (we can blame Wild Bill for that, way back in the day with 1-800-FLY-BIKE, Nashbar and Performance).
For instance, try to find a current helmet that is 'not' MIPS. None of the big players are going to produce non-mips due to legal liability (valid or not). Same as the QR case some years ago and on and on and on. There is a reason that many smaller companies do not "build" bikes (the LBS does). Simply, liability (how many of us take off reflectors before the first ride???)
and good on Norco for offering the Optic frame/shock for 2300. Not 'cheap' but going with an alu rear end helps keep it in line with some full alu performance frames. i like this competition. also i hope GG is staying busy, they're doing great work.
:sighs, subscribes:
Can’t wait to listen
Not everyone gets it right, but it certainly seems like they made the right decision to me. All that extra product dev will mean that the made in Taiwan bikes will be better than made in America bikes would have been.
..... Lots of USA brands are MADE IN CHINA and they're really nice and worth every cent we buy them for even if it seems high, the price... for SC though, it's like they went on the sly, moved operations to China without telling anyone... I had a lot of people miffed about that. I had to do some damage control with some people soon as the news hit.. Back then, buying MADE IN USA was still a big thing. Currently, take Transition for example.. they were always made in ROC and they're pretty damn popular but, still cheaper (basically) than SC and several MADE IN USA brands. They even did a video of them traveling over there where they set up the factory...... Back then, I sold K2, KHS, Marin, Iron Horse and Fuji for the light weight nubbies who didnt care where things were made,, just didnt want to pay an arm and a leg for a quality bike.... I did Mountain Cycle, Ellsworth, Banshee, SC, Turner, Dean and a few other blingy brands for the folks who knew a thing or two about bikes and were willing to spend the cash for that added bling factor. People really were wiling to pay more for MADE IN USA... I think the only brand I had problems with was Intense.. QC with them was absolutely horrible that I wouldnt even carry the brand. I had a lot of repairs on them though.. Lots of them had serious issues. Funny Quote: we were having major issues with an Intense frame. the tail end wasn't built right, it was off, way off,, off like 5mm's so we couldnt set it up right. sent in the tail for warranty, couple months later, we got the replacement... it was not only sent in the wrong color, it still didnt fit right.. we sent that back.... same deal, ~2 months later get a new tail and this time, it was square edge tubing not round edge like the original. Keep in mind, every time we called to check on status, it was like starting over with a new conversation... OK, so this time, at least it fit and we could set up the frame correctly.... talking with some guy at Intense about it and all the problems.. he says to me: "well, that's what you get for buying American".... I was floor'd.. the customer sold the frame and moved onto a Transition Tr250, paying far less than what he paid for the Intense. Getting back on topic.. I dabble a little with MX products selling products sold through Oneal. Im always baffled the prices I pay for MX vs bicycle. Huge differences sometimes
All that air pollution in China also comes because their power generation rules are so lax. That power is being used to make products for us.
The best stuff may be the best stuff, that I agree with, but where it's made has a big environmental impact.
FWIW, I think SCB are made at their own plant in Vietnam, which even if true, doesn't really change the points you made.
Anyway, what you pointed out is one of many reasons why Guerrilla Gravity gets all my bike frame money.
Will your purchase aid in funding to support military juntas, or unsustainable environmental outcomes, or propagate national debt reliance to other countries with values not consistent with progressive society, expose you and your current quality of life to be subject to trade, foreign exchange or economic risk.
This is the second part of the offshoring strategy that corporates have followed that we are now paying, and is presented as due.
If the industry was serious it would have an international standard and sticker readily presented for the purchaser mandated on point of sale describing energy and resource consumption, environmental attributes and local content %.....
To be honest coming from someone who does composites for the aerospace industry I always wonder how bikes are so inexpensive. If we had to design, manufacture, and assemble em where I work I bet we would charge something like $45k each.
Don't get me wrong $3000 to $6000 for a bicycle is ALOT of cash but it really is impressive what the industry does with relatively small resources. I have a lot of respect for the people building great product at small to medium size businesses and making money while doing it.
Also, I'm sure there's a volume discount if you buy all-in with a component brand—so if you spec one brand's brakes and drivetrain you might qualify for deeper discounts total than if you cherry pick the line.
I thought Shimano got in pretty big trouble in the 90's for doing what you are talking about. Making companies buy the entire groupset or not getting the best deal.
Oh, I'm sure there is volume pricing going on for sure. I just remembered a lawsuit, perhaps filed by SRAM, that allowed them to get into the OEM market with gripshift in the mid 90's.
I remember being initially excited by the idea of them, when they came out was underwhelmed by the specs.
A Box 1 prime 9 cassette is every bit as expensive as a X01 eagle speed cassette, and the Box 2 is somehow heavier than an NX Eagle cassette for the same price with 3 fewer sprockets, and uses the same driver. I guess the Box 3 saves $25, but at that point I'd rather just have a GX 11speed @ 60% of the weight and only $15 more than the Box 2 or NX Eagle.
The prime 9 seems good for a 1x retrofit of a bike you already have, but I don't think it offers much other than the simplicity of 3 fewer gears or a handful of dollars for new builds/bikes.
I hope you keep plugging other podcasts on your homepage, they need all the support they can get - the more biking podcasts out there, the less shit my commute!
1. It's a yuppie target demographic.
2. There is a component duopoly (near monopoly on high end stuff until recently). At some point the margins for what bike manufacturers got for reselling the components bolted on to their frames exceeded what they were making on frames (after discount incentives to spec the entire bike with SRAM components). Then of course the price of frames only (if the option was even still made available) had to go WAY up because you can't have other people sourcing components and assembling complete bikes for less than what you're charging.
After 10+ years working in the industry I have had the opportunity to ride a lot of high end bikes, road and mountain. Even so, I am totally satisfied riding ~$4,000 alloy mountain bikes. Most brands strike a balance between performance and value at that pricepoint that, in my opinion, is an ideal price-to-performance ratio for the majority of people that ride hard and expect their stuff to hold up.
Is it flashy? No.
Is it functional and affordable? in my opinion, yes.
So long as bike companies continue to offer great options at this pricepoint, I won't ever complain about them trying to peddle $10k+ bikes to dentists.
Small companies – if they were smart – could team up and sell bikes at much lower cost. But that is tricky. Because you need to have the press on your side. And the press would really piss off the big advertisers if they pushed a competitor that could get their client out of business.
What they learn in business school is "how to drive up prices to justify your outrageous paycheck".
Inflate the product, make debt, and then crash the market.
Make money now – who cares about the future. Executives will get jobs in other industries, workers will still find jobs but they will be "grateful" they get paid same salary as 10 years ago. "At least I have a job".
These are the basics of US economy. Rich get richer, poor get poorer.
Then you wonder why there is a recession every ten years – where public companies receive free tax payer money.
The current economy crisis was about to happen without coronavirus. Corona is just used as a bonus to make it more legitimate and checks bigger.
Right now the cycling industry is saturated.
People are not buying e-bikes as they expected. People are tired to buy a new bike that feels outdated after one season. 650b, fat bikes, plus 27, plus 29, plus 26, enduro, rally, downcounty, upcountry, middle country, boost, megaboost, more rake, less rake, two calipers. four calipers, three calipers etc.
The cow was milked. There are no new consumer to be added. They even turned into the older age market with ebikes to get new people in.
Good time to buy used (as always) – I just got a USD 3500 Santa Cruz Blur, barley ridden for USD 1300. It still had plastic pedals and reflectors from the store.
Some small brands with overseas manufacturing price their bikes very reasonable, like Cotic and Transition. I always question the other brands, like Evil and Yeti. The arguement could be R&D, but it's likely licensing of suspension design. I would guess the material and labor cost is nearly identical, usually in the same factory. The amount of employees, which would account for markup, Evil and Transition are miles apart... In the wrong direction. Evil is cool and I would love to have one, but Transition is more about the ride, not the money, based on price. If that makes sense. $2000 spread 3 ways or $1000 spread 10 ways. Can argue units sold, blah, blah, blah.. But still..
Don't want to step on toes, but that's how I see it.
I would pay A$7k for a top spec Pivot off shelf in '20.
Any assessment of money relativity over time would say race quality bikes have decreased in relative price.
What is hidden in the price comparison is strategic national interest, gutting of the manufacturing with flow through benefits of local manufacture, and the now inevitable significant decline on western world quality of living standards as a result of measuring sustainable industry in a year by year basis on terms margin and growth %.
Price is a relative function not of income, but % unemployed.
Veblen good
A Veblen good is a type of luxury good for which demand increases as the price increases, in apparent contradiction of the law of demand, resulting in an upward-sloping demand curve. A higher price may make a product desirable as a status symbol in the practices of conspicuous consumption and conspicuous leisure. A product may be a Veblen good because it is a positional good, something few others can own. Veblen goods are named after American economist Thorstein Veblen, who first identified conspicuous consumption as a mode of status-seeking in The Theory of the Leisure Class. A corollary of the Veblen effect is that lowering the price decreases the quantity demanded.
Another aspect, relating to the above, is the iPhone X marketing ploy - a massively expensive XX1/XTR bike ‘positions’ customers to buy the next level down iPhone 8 (eg XO1/XT, or even X9/SLR - such better value). But not the iPhone 5s (alivio/deore ) - that’s daggy.
We just suckers for the bait n switch.
A funny thing I noticed is the comparison of mass and materials per $. My 2021 Honda CRF300L dualsport motorcycle weighs 310 LBS ish. Obviously there is supply and demand, engineering and manufacturing costs, but...one thing I find interesting is the cost per mass of materials. Putting aside the fact that you want lighter mountain bikes and motorcycles in general for better performance, they both have and always will consist of a certain amount of materials, a range of mass that has to be acquired and molded into that product. If you compare an imaginary 30 LBS mountain bike costing $6000 USD to a 312 LBS motorcycle like the CRF300L costing $5249 USD you get this:
Every LBS of that Honda CRF300L costs you $16.93.
Every LBS of that 30 LBS mtb costs you $200.00
A higher end mountain bike say $9000 for a 25 LBS bike = $360 per LBS
A lower end mountain bike say $2000 for a 32 LBS bike = $62 per LBS
A higher end dual sport like a 250 LBS KTM 350 EXC for $10,999 = $31.43 LBS
Yes there is more to a product and market than the mass and materials that go into them, but still, it is interesting.
- If you only had 3 manufacturers economies of scale would bring pricing down (assuming they don't form some kind of illegal consortium to keep prices high and actually compete against each other of course)
- High end bikes have huge potential performance levels (just because most of us don't use it, doesn't mean it isn't available) people often compare MTB to a motorcycle, take a look a motorcycles suspension internals, you will have to fit aftermarket £1k internals to bring forks damping upto the standard of a £6k MTB and they still wont have near the same performance to weight ratio / performance regarding the chassis - same with many other parts like handlebars, stems etc etc.
Marketing - media events, press briefing, advertising (digital and print ), media video and sponsorship.
Sales - regional managers who manage bike shop relationships, markup by bike shops to either cover overhead or make profit.
Other factor that affect cost research and development and part spec.
If you compare direct sale bikes versus dealership bikes you will typically see 20-50% reduction ride off cost for comparable spec bikes. Though you won’t have a relationship with a local bike shop who could help you down rode deal with warranty or other issues.
They capitalize on the fact young (and some older) people rather work doing something they like than getting more money for something they do not like.
Direct sales it has been around for ages and it is an interesting business/marketing model... in particular for bikes. Who doesn't want to ride the bike before buying it? The only real savings are the reseller markup. They probably spend more money on advertising etc. They are not much cheaper unless you pay full price at the shop. The only companies that offer higher prices product for much lower quality are the usual ones... They generally start with "S".
Saying a company does $X million in sales does not at all infer a margin of profit. Frankly, most LBS I have been in for the past ten years only give me MORE reason to purchase things online (just yesterday a local BigS LBS said 2-4 weeks to repair a shock on an under warranty bike - MFG who we called said "Huh? Four days, mail it to us!!! - X-Fusion, awesome customer service!!!!). So, while the owner of that bike WAS a fan of the LBS...not many LBS even attempt to be a "VAR", or Value Added Reseller. Only the VAR will exist soon enough.
A mail catalog back then would cost.. let's say 5k... Most of the advertising was done by costumers word of mouth and recommendations. Do the catalog and run a couple of magazine ads (which was monthly but people could see your name on the magazine any time they opened it – even after years).
Nowdays people search for everything online. Old and young. You need to have a strong online presence. You need to buy ads on industry websites in order to have good reviews and plug your product. The bigger companies have "press release camps" which are a paid vacation for the press. Running a site is going to be at least 20k a year (Hosting, developer, designer, photographer, retoucher etc), promo videos have a cost as well... just the travel expenses as people working on it do not get much if anything (including most pros).
A very small operation can get by with small resources, but I was referring to the Direct to consumer gimmick of brands that sell the whole bike. The opposite model example is the specialized failure. Fist they force stores to buy 100'k of their junk (clothing, components tires saddles etc) and they force them to drop all other brands. Once the stores shut down, they already made a profit. I am not sure how any shop owner could have fall for it, but I have a couple of ideas.
The most worst part of entry level bikes is typically brakes an tires, so typically entry level bike will require grand of uprades during first year of riding
The best part of entry level bikes, they have awesome geo which make them nice platform for the upgrades
In a other hand, with only 2 competitors, Sram, fox and shim find a confortable situation and the final customer cannot find the best solution (technique and price)
The Bike industry foolishly operates like the fashion industry with annual model releases and prebookings required across a plethora of brands, models, levels, size and colors. In this model there is inevitable surplus/shortage situations and significant clear-out/inventory costs. This is why clothing has big markups at each change of hands - you know a good portion of what you just bought will never sell at full value.
Too many hands in the pot and restrictive trade agreements.
And, most importantly, we have a grotesquely warped view of the bike "market". The average pinkbiker is part of the upper crust of the market... the vast majority of bike sales are mass produced and, relatively, very high value. Even the value bikes part of the current field test would be considered premium by the majority of bicycle owners.
For riding really basic, slow, flattish trails do you want a steep seat angle that puts a lot of weight on your hands? Steep seat angles, long and slack front ends are only a benefit when you're on interesting trails, and you put up with them everywhere else because the interesting trails are the ones you care about
But seriously, what I think you guys got wrong is that there are definitley entry-level 2000$ trail bikes out there that are worth keeping and upgrading. The conventional wisdom of not bothering with upgrades on entry level bikes was all based on the fact that these bikes were mostly outdated and mostly didn't adhere to modern standards. Well, that changed drastically over the last couple of years - nowadays even many 2000$ bikes will have progressive geometry, metric suspension, boost axles, wide rims, tubeless ready tires, dropper posts, etc. Its just not true anymore that these are generally sub-par and that therefor upgrades would be unreasonable or not worth it.
Here's a small list of entry level trail bikes for around 2000$ that stick to the modern standards and that I'd consider worthy of keeping around and upgrading: Norco Fluid FS, Commencal Meta TR, Merida One-Twenty, Polygon Siskiu T, Marin Rift Zone, Focus Jam, Fezzari Abajo Peak, Cube Stereo 120, GT Sensor, Cannondale Habit
Tim Horton's or local bakery?
Trail bike or Enduro bike for the average Pinkbike reader?
The future of Downcountry?
Candid is good.
Cheers!
Now I have a YT that cost me $4,000 less, has the same or better components as an LBS bike, and absolutely fking rips.
YT for life. Change my mind.
LBS' DO NOT STOCK REPLACEMENT PARTS--especially not spare frame parts.
I dont know why people fail to grasp this. You often get extra long responses from the LBS b/c they're backlogged with requests and will take a few days to a few weeks to even submit your warranty request to the manufacturer.
It's always better to avoid middlemen whenever possible. Deal direct with the companies that make the products.
That would be great, to have another option available, it will likely be pretty rowdy, and I hope still pedal well.
Now I remember, they showed some shots of it in the "Live Caged" clip they just released.
Can we have a topic of importing bike to Canada from direct dealers (US & Europe)? end cost, foreign exchange etc..
I think LBS ends up way better in this situation
Heaps of good info too, not just silly banter. Keep it up.
Video version: meh.
Text transcript: yes please!
That rendering though?
I've seen plenty of shops where the owner is driving the shop van around. It also tends to be the habit to start at the MSRP of the product and sell it for less, not mark things up based on demand, like car companies do. Margin is generally decent, but most shops simply don't move the kind of volume to be a good ownership proposition.
It's been incredibly rare for me to see someone working in a shop who couldn't make more money moving out of the industry. I've worked alongside a few race mechanics and franchise owners who've done well enough for themselves, but unless you have a monopoly over an entire city/riding area, you're not gonna be raking in the big bucks.
I worked directly under the owner of a franchise who had a g-wagon. Every time we pulled up to a race, mechanics would stare and the first words out of his mouth would be "I swear I got that before I got into the bike business." Great neutral support vehicle to drive around, I'll say that much.
These guys are far, far, into the minority. You should be able to find out pretty accurate payscales on how much a trek shop owner, GM, and sales/mechs make online. For most owners who have one shop, it's very common for them to be there for most of the time to keep things running, as they simply can't afford to live off of the profits AND afford payroll for another operations manager to be there 60 hrs/week.
At least he has good taste, and if he came from money it sure isn’t the bike shop funding his lifestyle.
I don’t have a problem with it as long as he’s not gouging over manufacturers MSRP for the small stuff or anything wild for service.
The longest-lasting shop close to me has survived by charging MSRP with a year end sale, only hiring good people, and gouging on service. Not the greatest for the customer, but there’s something to be said for ensuring that you get a professional experience, even if it’s a bit more clinical than the wheeling, dealing, mom and pop feel - if it ensures you stay in business and can weather the storm.