The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 102 - Should MTB Media Be Going to Press Camps?

 We don’t need a whole podcast to answer that question…

 I seems they think nobody buys Beta/Outside because they are under marketed. So I have a good news, after one day my attitude for Beta changed from "I give a sh*t" to "If I see one more Beta article link I will vomit". Congratulations.

 I’ll look into having an option for people to hide Beta stories (the same way people can hide eMTB/XC/DH/etc. stories etc in their settings).

 As an engineer with a bmx background, let me give you some career advice. The second a marketer/other MBA type has any control/say over your product design, whether that be a list of articles rendered on a page, or a physical product spec, it's over. The plane is heading into the ground, it's time to bail. People with 0 ability to bring anything to the world are doing the equivalent of tearing the copper wiring and plumbing out of your building to sell it for scrap. Time to move on to the next thing with the lesson learned.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NASGb5m8s

 @brianpark: “we have top men working on it right now…” - Brian Park

youtu.be/Fdjf4lMmiiI

 @GorgeousBeauGaston: all I heard is "BMX background". When is the shreddit dropping?

 @GorgeousBeauGaston: a BMX background you say?

 If an article exists behind a paywall, but nobody clicks on it, does the paywall exist?

Be safe be well,
Incognito Robin

 What paywall? Everything loads just fine…

 Yeah, it seems like a very counterproductive marketing move. Just makes beta and outside look bad. It looks like a desperation move to me, I wonder if Beta is circling the drain.

 At least the Beta articles headlines are things I wouldn’t have clicked on even if they were free.

 @GorgeousBeauGaston: Okay, serious question: Why do literally ALL engineers pre-qualify their statements with: "As an engineer..."

 I really think they underestimate the extent to which people here will go to not click on this content. It doesn’t matter if it’s a joint McCaskill/Semenuk raw must-watch with Brage chopping wood in the mud. People here won’t click on it out of spite, just to give two middle fingers to Outside. They’re fighting a losing battle and really need to rethink their approach.

 @Chadimac22: Ugh...reminds me of my CTO...we get it, you have no social skills!

Be safe be well,
Incognito Robin

 @Chadimac22: As an engineer I would never say that.

 @rickybobby18 Oh man, it sounds like we've got some stuff to talk about on the next podcast.

 @Chadimac22: when they follow it up with BMX background I’m all ears

 @brianpark: I did it with uBlock Origin

 @mikelevy: So the plan emerges, I guess? Beta was already paywalled, so now Beta becomes the "member exclusive content" sub-brand of PB. I guess now we keep an eye on what gets the Beta tag; my expectation would be that over time better and better stuff ends up in that bin, 'till the free feed is all brand advertorials and things like group tests are paywalled. Prove me wrong!

 All the hate about paywall aside...Beta has a great product. Articles have a totally different feel than PB and I really enjoy them...the physical magazine is also a nice touch...kinda like Freehub, just fun to sit and read a magazine cover to cover. Well worth the money IMO.

 @MikeyMT: Yeah, if you live in US, otherwise why pay extra for printed Beta, if you cannot have it?
Honestly, if I pay someone, it will be Paul Aston or alike, not Robin, sorry.

 @brianpark: Please do.

 @lkubica: You're breaking my heart my friend. How can I convince you otherwise?

Be safe be well,
Incognito Robin

 @TheR: I'm not sure if you are correct. Sure there are a bunch of people on the comments banging on about the beta links (myself included), but I'm willing to bet we are a vocal minority when compared to the volume of non commenting public that visits PB and are fine with the beta links. Take the Budget vs Baller videos that are really smashed in the PB comments. You would think it's going to be a failure. But look at the view numbers and comments on YouTube - It's was a complete success there.

Let's face it we are all acting like a bunch of angry gatekeepers! That said it makes for interesting reading in the comments.

 @Drew-O: Beta was ~30% paywalled, it's now ~99% paywalled and they don't have to compete with the stuff that Pinkbike is doing. Pinkbike stays free and pretty much as it is, except you'll have to scroll past some Beta articles if you're not interested. I'll write a little update asap.

 @IMeasureStuff: You're right in the sense that it won't be 100 percent. Some people who already have Outside+ accounts will click through. The vast majority of users here, though, not a chance. Outside needs to read the room here.

 @TheR: You're clearly wrong. You think they are just making these decisions willy nilly? They know your (and everyones here) browsing patterns - and you give it to them by accepting their cookies policy - this is not complicated stuff, any digital marketing team worth their salt can track this stuff and make decisions on how to best cross-promote content. You think all those article compilation articles over the last 6 months were just a coincidence? lol...they are collecting data on you with every click you make, every comment you make then taking that data to push you to purchase...its just how the internet works.

 @TheR: I know everyone worries about comments being killed...why on earth would they do that? You know how much free market research and insights they get from all of us in these comments...hell I'd venture there is a revenue stream in here in you found an interesting way to package 'user sentiment' on certain topics that could be sold to bike/product manufacturers. You should welcome the paywall...anything that is 'free' online simply means YOU and YOUR data are the product not the content you're consuming.

 @unrooted: *slow clap*

 @Chadimac22: Because the nerds somehow think we'll take them seriously. But we don't. Because they're nerds.

 @MikeyMT: Oh yes, our almighty overlord, the a l g o r i t h m..

Nah, I agree with @TheR Sure, PB can use data collected to make a *best guess* on how to roll something out, but that does not automatically mean that it will be successful. It's been said dozens of times--what makes PB is the comments section, followed by the buy/sell, followed by PB staff personalities. I don't want to watch Levy shuckin' and jivin' his way through some scripted advertorial, and I think Kaz would rather ride gravel before having to do so. Commentors called out when Chapetta did a Trek comparison when she's sponsored by Trek.. even though it was literally marked as a Trek advertisement.

People can spot BS. Sneaky shoehorning of an Outside+ brand into PB leaves a bad taste for some, and at least does not go unnoticed for others.

 @Chadimac22: they need to know that we know they are an engineer and that they are better than us.

 @brianpark: If Pinkbike essentially stays how it is I think a lot of people will stand down with their pitch forks. Right now there is clearly a justifiable huge fear it's about to dissappear behind a paywall. It's an almost unique site in the world of MTB in that the active chats and comments are seen as important as the article its self. A Paywall would mean you rip the soul out of what makes Pinkbike great.

 @MikeyMT: If they are monitoring all the comments, how could they possibly think people are going to click through? Stevie Wonder can see the overwhelming response. I could be wrong, of course, but in this case I don’t think so.

As for all the other stuff you’re talking about, it’s unrelated to this particular point. That’s not what I’m discussing.

 By putting beta stuff on pb it does make us all mad and thus gets pb more clicks and more comments... It's like super liberal or conservative news outlets using clickbaity headlines designed to make people outraged and thus interested. Same for articles like henry saying that internal routing and more proprietary parts is better, it gets hate clicks. It's gross but it works, I mean here we are commenting on it.

 @GorgeousBeauGaston: only trust engineers with the right backgrounds

 @kcy4130: Bingo. Also let me guess...you all clicked the Beta link 'just in case' right? lol. Its working...vocal minority will always be mad about something. The analogy is bros complaining about ski tickets being too expensive..you think Vail wants your and your cheap ass buddies that drink PBRs in the parking lot there in the first place, lol.

 @GorgeousBeauGaston: As an MBA with a mtb/motorsports background who runs a gigantic capital program in an engineering heavy industry, let me give you some career advice. The second an engineer type has any control over your product aesthetic or implementation plan or overall management of steering that initiative forward, its over. The plane is heading into the ground, its time to bail. People with 0 ability to be able to describe something in layman's terms, coordinate with other silo'd departments and people they would need to rely on as stakeholders to get the task completed, or have any ability to interact with others as a normal human being, are doing the equivalent of drawing up 50 iterations of plans to tear out copper wiring and plumbing, and never be able to sell it because they can't actually get anything moving. Time to move on to the next thing with the lesson learned.

 @brianpark: At least they haven't put a padlock icon on the article to rub it in your face like over at Velonews...... YET.

 @Sweatypants: shots fired

 @rickybobby18: I mean... he asked for it. As a single group, there is no one more socially inept and awkward/oblivious to the actual business running, than a group of engineers. And the few that actually CAN do both and are personable and business oriented, end up either becoming the chief engineer of whatever their field/dept. is, or they start a consulting firm or their own business. All the other ones sit in a cube like a weirdo for 20 years surrounded by piles of schematics and design drawings, and look like somebody that might get caught masturbating in a trench coat in a public park on a Wednesday.

Anecdotally with race cars and motorbikes, never in my life, have I seen a more meticulous people, that will build something so mechanically amazing and top notch, and then tear it all down and totally redo the engine setup or suspension design/geometry 15 times, before they'll just spend the couple hundred bucks and powdercoat their wheels one single color so it actually looks like a decent, finished car and not some scrap heap... than engineers.

The two sides compliment each other most times, not recognizing this goes back to the "socially inept" part above. At least have some introspection about yourself and what you do and what you don't do.

 @Sweatypants: *Grizzly Adams Nodding*

 Every time I see "Photo Essay" Beta mtb Link it reminds me of similar articles we used to see here but now all that's going to be at Beta MTB now.

 @Sweatypants: You sound like the type that puts fancy rims on a race car to distract people from the fact that the engine keeps overheating and the handling is dangerously awful cause it's only half tested. But seriously, it obviously takes both types. Companies are ruined when one type tries to do the job of the other. Engineers want to test and design for every possible contingency, the ones that lack confidence often take this too far and cost too much time/money. Basically engineers want to design and sell products that will last for years, be repairable, and have inexpensive wear parts/consumables. This means more design/testing time and thus slightly higher up front costs. Business types want products that look good, sell well, breakdown early/often for more replacement parts sales, then catastrophically fail early to lead to more sales of new units. This is why engineers and consumers hate business majors, because they put the short term profit margins of a company above long term survival/profit margins of the company. Well anyways, I'm off to the park in my trench coat, have a nice day.

 @brianpark: An engineer with a bmx background completely eroded my trust in his professional work. I’ve seen too many “repairs” performed with precision tools like hammers, vans slip-one’s and hitting rims against hard objects to straighten for me to trust that combination. Maybe he’s in demolitions.

 @kcy4130: no, I'm the type that finishes a job completely, instead of getting 90% of the way there and giving up at the last minute then changing my mind a million times because I have brain spiders. Personally its just annoying to my OCD tendencies. But I agree with you, it def takes both. Companies need the the product to perform well, they also need somebody to sell the product, handle the customer service, plan for and handle the money, etc...

The motorcycle industry is by far the WORST offender of any of that. There are so many mega talented welders and fab dudes that have zero business, actually running a business, and they're terrible at it, and it hurts their name, and product, and future profitability. Seen it so many times I couldn't even tell you.

Also, I've never wanted planned obsolesce, I'd say most "business types" do not want that. I DO want something that doesn't experience 4 months of delays for redo's to the spec drawings though, and something that doesn't sit in procurement for 12 months when it should have been 2 because nobody followed up on it, and something that does pay the contractor an extra 20% in inefficiency claims because an engineer forgot to coordinate materials or resources properly. Those would do just fine in my dream world. Enjoy the park!

 @Chadimac22: probably the same reason I usually start off unsolicited advice with " I'm no engineer, but"

 @GorgeousBeauGaston: this is exactly what is playing out at Arc'teryx right now

 @GorgeousBeauGaston: This homie thinks he's Steve Jobs...lol.

 @kcy4130: not to be overly rude to them but they failed as a business as Bike not too long ago and nothing really has changed so its not hard to imagine history repeating itself

 @brianpark: wait, what? I can hide eMTB content?! I’ve stumbled around and can’t those settings. Any pointers on where to look? I’m on mobile.

 @Krackity-Jones: step 1: change to desktop view.

Step 2: click around until you figure it out.

 Ha, you're welcome. Thank you for your sacrifice.

 *Timbits..... the disrespect.......

 Haha swatbox

 @dairydolores: ugh. At least I caught the auto correct to 'sweatbox' before I posted.

 Unfortunately, most bike brands don't hold their press camps near any Tim locations due to extremely poor planning and misplaced priorities.

 @mikelevy: sounds like you need to open a Tims near the next press camp

 As one of the many Tim's in the world, I'm not sure how I feel about it.

 Sorry, did someone mention me and my box, I wasn't really listening?

 @bigtim: It was your bits actually Tim.

 Is there a category above 'first world problems'? Asking for a friend.

 Independent mountain bike media lost a big player when outside knocked on the door.

 I’ve been at a trailhead in pemberton while a bunch of editors were attending some type of press camp for Giro….the only people there who seemed the slightest bit happy to be there was the people who were obviously working for Giro. It doesn’t seem like a good way to get a fair write up about the products if the editors don’t even appear to be having a good time.

 That's the gist of it, but I do think that press camps can be mined for some really good content. The engineers who designed the bike (or product) are on hand, so it is a chance to get unique information that wouldn't show up in a press release, but I can't stand seeing bold declarations about a bike's performance after three hours of riding it on some boring trails that took ten hours to fly to

 @unrooted: To be fair, we often have a ton of fun at press camps. I mean, it is riding bikes after all.

 Apology accepted!

 @mikelevy: to be fair, this experience of mine was during Crankworx, so I’m sure the journo’s were a bit worn out….so it didn’t look like they were excited to ride their bikes.

I was also taken aback because it was the least friendly trailhead I had ever encountered in, at the time, 26 years of riding.

 @captain23: I folded.
The temptation to have some long-form written articles over shreddits had me lay down my $24 for the year.

So far I'm impressed with Beta's articles and their spread of topics.

 underrated.

 @mikelevy: Is it possible, they hate paywalls MORE than I hate E-bikes?? Naaaaah

 @Moonie2123: It's likely they hate paywalls even more than I hate e-bikes.

 @mikelevy: I will remember this for next time!

 For sure. I've got some YouTuber guests coming up as well for interview podcasts

 I hate YouTubers making heavily promoted "shedits" or whatever on illegal but tolerated trails with sensitive landowners who get upset by the publicity. There are some YouTubers in the sth of England who defiantly seem to put self interest before the interests of the local riding community.

 On that same note, how Strava changed the sport/trails. Kind of a chicken vs the egg thing, but in general it's now more about the fastest line and not necessarily hanging out and sessioning features with your buddies.

 @subwaypanda: Any examples?

 @mikelevy: I hope one of them is Hardtailparty! Competent rider, yet probably not quite an enduro bro, I feel like he does a good job relating to a lot of us average riders. His input on geo vs fork travel has informed some of my recent purchases.. I'd definitely listen if you guys sat down to shoot the sh*t for a while.

 @subwaypanda: oh get over it. stop being a subject, and start being a citizen.

demand access. don't ask.

 @mikelevy: the guy from Toronto that does LoveMTB is amazing. His videos are short and to the point and always answers the questions I have in my head.

Cheers guys, cheers.

 We're trying to add comments to the Beta website.

 I think it's all Outside related, case in point Outside now owns Velo News and every Velo News article I try to read I get pay walled so I just I just leave

 Agreed, those are great points.

 Definitely a thing. And one good reason to not “review” bikes at press camps.

 We talk about the changes a lot on the podcast and do answer plenty of questions in the comment section

 @mikelevy: like the random introduction of beta articles?

What’s the roadmap?

What is going to be paywalled?

Is there a mechanism to have the data we have to pb removed from outsides database?

Where is the awesome content beta promised?

If there was ever a time waki was needed.

 @mikelevy: maybe hold an AMA and be honest?

I remember talking to one of your devs about Trailforks during that acquisition and boy-howdy has this strayed from the vision.

 @mgrantorser: I'm sure it's not "random" to those who are planning these things, which isn't me, but I can try to get answers for you in the next podcast. The Beta articles aren't taking anything away from Pinkbike or the content we deliver - they're an addition - so I just don't see the fuss about it, especially as nothing made by or for PB is behind a paywall. Speaking of what we deliver, we've got more employees making more and better content than ever before, and none of it is behind a paywall.

I understand some of your concern - this has become a community to a lot of people and change can suck - but I've been working here A LOT longer than the large majority of users who are posting accusatory comments like yours about the possible changes to Pinkbike, so put yourself in my shoes. If you think we haven't been honest, you always have the option of not coming here. We share what we know when we know it.

 @mikelevy: WE. DON’T. LIKE. CHANGE.

 @mikelevy: First up, I know you guys are probably also at the mercy of Outside and their parent company. Please dont think my comments are actually directed at you personally. I've been on here since '07, so not new to the party (you've got me by 2 years). While I do think you have an unreasonable love for srams weak ass drivetrain, in general I value your opinion on all other things bike related, and have to give you credit for some pretty cool impact on the industry as a whole.

Re the sale, it did feel like we as a community were taken advantage of/misled in the lead up. The survey on socioeconomics and buying habits which was posted the week before the sale is something I would never have filled out for the benefit of a US hedge fund. That was underhanded as the sale had to be a done deal by then. For an oddball canadian company, f*ck yeah, take my data, sell to me, but their shareholders can go kick rocks. I was also totally down with the trailforks plus accounts, despite having had a convo with a dev while mapping trails during beta re keeping it free as a gift to the community that made PB what it is. Again, servers cost, no problem, bought my premium membership like so many others.

Looked at in hind sight, this, plus the cycling tips purchase and so many other things were clearly laying the groundwork for the sale, and as a long standing community member, it feels really crappy. PB is one of the last places I know of on the internet that still has the internet 1.0 flavour - just a community of kooks who were the customers, instead of a product that wealth is extracted from for a faceless shareholder. The comments section hasnt been infiltrated by nazis, and you can still make an offside joke within reason. For what its worth, I think you guys all deserve a pay day (hope you got yours), and I would have been happy to pay a membership or whatever keep PB independent, while ensuring you could all to afford cars made this century with airbags and a back seat and sized for an adult. I bet a lot of other users here would have too.

Regardless, the sale happened, I know this place cant keep being what it was, but gods do I hope it doesnt turn into what facebook has. The unannounced changes, the ominous statements that some content will always be free, and the lack of clarity or direction do not help anything. I think I (and I expect a lot of other folks) would love to have the Outside admins come in and do an AMA. After all, we are the product they sell to their shareholders, and while my 2 second ineffectual attempt at organizing isnt going to change anything, without the users this site is worthless. If things continue and NSMB or someone else puts a little effort in people will leave. It would be cool if outside could give all the frogs a little heads up re just how hot the water is going to get.

 I must of missed something, where did the Specialized 48hour guarantee come from? Was this included in the new direct to consumer model released last week? This is for warranty parts, not repairs I assume?

 @JDFF: yes warranty and service parts like suspension or wheels. I read about the 48h a while ago. May not be as “garantied” now days

 @redmountaingoat: thanks. As much as I don't want to admit it, Specialized has been one of the best in dealing with warranty claims. Just wasn't aware of the ambitious goal of 48 hours. To me, two weeks seems reasonable.

 @JDFF: i looked again and the 48h is for the brain shock service

 @redmountaingoat: ha! Interesting. Definitely not one to know much about the Brain Shock. Good follow up.

 It's so nice, I can't wait to go back.

 Reddit is cancer.