The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 12 - What's the Future of Bike Shops?

 Servicing, servicing, servicing.

 I could easily live the rest of my life without going to a brick n’ mortar shop...thankfully I can do other sports if my bike needs something...

If I missed being talked down to then I could still go to a guitar shop.

 The podcast, much like the current shop market seems to forget about the fact that most people with bikes are not 'bike people'. Many just want a 'non-Walmart' sub $1,500 bike to ride with their kids, for their kids, take camping, commute etc. $1,000 for a bike for most people is a lot of money! A friendly shop that treats people well and gives great service will always have a place in my opinion.

 As long as there’re presta and schrader valves, we will stay open!

 I'm sorry to read that apparently many of you have a sh*tty LBS or bike scene in general. There really is no excuse to be a condescending douche to a customer.

One of the things I read quite often is that the future of bike shops lies solely in servicing.
Having worked in a bike/motorcycle shop, I can assure you that this is a very difficult business model to make profitable. Just because the shop is open for, let's say 9 hours a day, doesn't mean that you're able to invoice all of those 9 hours. Quite often you have customers visiting or taking phone calls, mailing suppliers for pending orders, placing orders... In my experience, if your shop is open for 9 hours, you're lucky to bill about 5 of those at the end of the day. And that's just not gonna cut it...

So what makes up for it: the margin on sales. If you take that away, you might as well close up shop and start working from your garage by yourself. And yes, parts will have to be ordered all of the time instead of sometimes.

 Super core dudes complaining about what they expect from a bike shop is ignorant. Shops stock the business to service the customer base that they have. Comfort bikes,kids bikes,bmxbikes , basic mtb bikes and the parts to service em pay the bills in most shops. The shop is gonna be prepared to service the customer that is in front of them daily. Chasing after the sale of every widget that the hardcore customer wants this week only stacks up dead stock.. Exceptions exist of course and the shops that can stock all that stuff are cool but be nice to the family shop that is ready to fix a flat for mom.

 Offering what online shops can't easily do.
Offering a range of built bikes you can see in person and test ride. Seeing if your kid is big enough to reach the ground on a 24" frame or if they're going to have to get a smaller frame.
Offering you a place to take your wheelchair/electricscooter/moped to ask to have the tyres pumped.

Without bike shops where would bored men in their 50's go to ask about unrelated things like crimps they can use to fix their lawnmower?

 Me - "Hey do you have this?", Shop employee - "...........*blank IDGAF stair* "Maybe...".
Me - "Hey Im in the market for a 6k bike could I demo one of these?", Shop employee "Why demo?, you're going to love it?"
Me - "Hey did my part come in I ordered 3 weeks ago?" Shop employee - "Ohhh uhhh no not yet."

 I sometimes wonder why they still exists in the first place. What comes to my mind:
- An ordinary person wants to buy a bike. It is nice to buy something which you can see
- An ordinary person wants to service a bike
- An mtb geek needs an emergency buy

That's it. For other things like suspension service, I would go to a dedicated service guy, not to the shop. Shops are good in adjusting mechanical parts which I can to on my own.

But the first two mean that their future is bright, because the majority of customers will always prefer a shop.

 Mike Levy, when you open that shop call me. I worked in shops for 10 years and finally left normal shop life to go run operations for a bike share. Even after 10 years of wrenching, and being the "lead" mechanic for the last 3 years, I was the point man on all high end electronic drivetrain/hydraulic brake/ suspension services and holding tons of industry certifications, I was still only making $14 an hour with out any benefits at all and was one of the highest paid mechanics in the shop. I didn't WANT to leave, I basically had to leave for another job that would pay more and have benefits. I still get calls from a lot of that shops race team members and my old regulars asking if I will do work for them.

If you guys want to dive deeper in to that subject you should get a hold of James Stanfil with the Professional Bike Mechanics Association. They've been trying to figure out ways to address a lot of those issues for the last several years.

 I'm surprised @brianpark @mikekazimer @mikelevy none of you guys brought up how the big companies and manufacturers are strait up raw dogging LBS more and more each day. People always talk about how shi_!_!_y specialized *used* to be with suing the little guys left n right. They're 10x worse now with the shady moves they're pulling with shops. How about manufacturers that have such atrocious supply chain management that shops are waiting MONTHS for bikes after they were told "it'll be there next Tuesday." At that point the end user is almost forced to buy a YT or Commencal or Canyon even if those bikes were fourth or fifth down the list of what the rider wanted originally (or never wanted that bike to begin with). Or how Shimano used to whore out their stuff to CRC and Jenson (afaik they're not doing it anymore and trying to get back in the good Grace's with the LBS).

A huge amount of the issues that come up with why people are unhappy with their local shop start directly at the top with the big companies. Whether that's a massive individual entity *looking at you Sinyard* or a mega Corp *looking at you PON*.

There are 100 different reasons that shops struggle to keep parts in stock and many of those also arise from the top, standards, hardware sizes, proprietary items, special tools, brand loyalty/snobbery. And again, so much of it comes from the top/the big companies.

It seems to me that the big Companies are hell bent on ENSURING the LBS goes out of business so that their pockets get even fatter. Having stand alone bicycle service centers might not be a bad idea, but just you wait till you're only going to be able to get your new Enduro serviced at a "Specialized Premier Service Center." You wanna bitch that a full service tune up costs $200, well wait till its $1200 at the Soecialized Service Center.

 This podcast just made me sad as a kid who just wants to learn about bikes but none of my local bike shops will hire me. Also the economy kinda sucks so it makes sense, but also like hire me pretty please

 Maybe this is just a Vancouver/North Vancouver thing, but I'm sometimes shocked (no pun intended) at how poor the face-to-face service is at bike shops (save a small few). Like, the sales floor employees are almost universally just not outgoing and friendly and engaging. It often feels like pulling teeth to get help with something.

I'm sure this changes once you show interest in purchasing a full bike, but god damn if it isn't shit when looking for anything else.

 Awesome episode. Best one yet. Made me think of my shop days, like the wrench who got busted sniffing saddles or the guy who jammed a ti synchros post into a too small seat tube. Same guy also chopped off a finger tip in a spinning rotor years later. Also totally on point about disadvantaged people riding bikes too. PS totally down with the straight edge shop blaring loud music. We found Japan X and White Zombie to bolero the floor monkeys away!

 Toxic? Well, I now work in a 'professional' field where degrees and designations abound and it is far more toxic than any bike shop I've ever had the pleasure of working at. Miss those days.

 I think the increase in mobile bike mechanics is what will really hurt the LBS. The LBS hires a kid that is going to the uni for mechanical engineering or something, bright kid does good work but moves on so they struggle to find another kid to pay $15 an hour to and that kid isn’t as bright so the service not as good. Got 2 mobile bike repair guys near me, they have years of experience, tons of attention to detail, I don’t have to worry if it is the sharp kid working on your bike or the new kid. They either install the parts you already bought or help you find them. Their time is billed by the hour, they don’t make more money by selling you parts that are less than ideal for your situation because it is their “brand partner” or whatever. It is just an all around better model. Not sure what the LBS can do to match or beat this.

 Oof, taking on the bike shop...

Yeah, shops have their issues. Some are utter shit, some are great. The shit shops who don't treat their customer with respect shouldn't be around, they give bad rap to the good shops.

Customers don't help the situation with entitled attitudes, failing to understand how difficult things can be sometimes when they expect to so much from someone who is usually grossly underpaid.

My biggest gripe with bike shops in the 10 years I've been working at them is beer being the "go to" tip . Sure, it can be appreciated, but the based on what I've seen at the 5 different shops in different states I've worked at, it only fuels the issues with alcohol that seem to be prevalent at a lot of bike shops. Want to show appreciation? Get the guy a gift card to a grocery store, some cash etc.

With the shit I've seen in a service department, service will always be needed and it's damn time shops realize that the service department is their backbone and invest in it. Pay your guys better, expand your service department. A little work at this goes a long way to give your shop and the service department a professional look. Big thing not done enough? clean your service department.

Bike sales at shops will still be strong for a long time. Consumer direct companies still have a long way to go to have things dialed.

 Shops need to cater to beginner cyclists too
Need a better place for everyone to feel comfortable. Those shops described as ideal cater to more high-end clientele

Bike purchase over the phone may be a great model for those mid range $1500 bikes that will likely end up being sold online in next 3-5 yrs. I work in a shop that was closed for covid. Customers could look at bikes online, pick one and have it delivered to their house. Demand was crazy. But the one thing missing was someone over the phone to explain to a customer differences in the bikes and geometry. Those entry level customers have a lot of questions. Most of which there is a gap. Info available online either lists super basic descriptions of bikes or gets way too technical for that customer stepping into a low-range hybrid/road/mtb bike for the first time and just wants to know some basics

Finally. Yes the bike shop bro needs to stop. But also some people want some of that feel to a shop. As a female x-racer and bike enthusiast it's a bit alarming when customers still come in and look for the closest "summer kob" kid In the shop to bro out about bikes, or pass me up because on looking at me as a female, what would I know about mountain biking. Or changing a flat.

Food for thought I hope!

 "After a week away for donuting and field testing, we're back!"

GRIM donuting, I suppose....

 My local shop is very much what Brian described. As someone who is fairly new to MTB they have been a God send. I'm also a person that spends hours online researching and reading but it's been great to just roll into the shop and bounce ideas off the more knowledgeable guys. They also have always been friendly no matter how dumb my ideas might be at times.

 I love my LBS. They never charge retail prices on bikes. If you see the MSRP online, expect to pay 10-20% off tax included (high price, bigger discount). Since I bought the my current bike from them, I can get free small parts like shifter cable, ferules, crimps. Also swapping the cassette to my new wheels, the owner did not even charge me. Other shops charge $20 to swap the

This is the reason why they never expand even if they are in the business for 10 years. Small shops will always take care of you. Them doing these little things will make you come back whatever you need for your bike.

 To me, direct to consumer, or the internet, can never fully replace a good shop. When I'm over my head and I need help in a pinch, the internet can't bail me out. Not to mention I've made lifelong friends out of what was supposed to be a one time purchase over 10 years ago.

 Definitely hate the "biker bro" that some shops employee. They are easy enough to avoid though, simply don't go back to the shops that employee such people.

 Bike shops are similar to when you had to go to a local computer shop to get parts and build a computer. The employees treated you like you were an idiot and they were a gift from god. However, you knew that it was a necessary evil to go into the shop. The last few experiences I've had at a LBS, there was zero customer service and without me following up I would have been without my bike for a month. Service is key and if they can't figure that out then let them go out of business.

 Re: Bottles and cages

Length is the limiting factor. It's time we switch to ⌀3.5" bottles and cages - standard Nalgene bottles, until something sleeker comes along - to get double the volume for a given length. 32 oz. bottle is the length of a 16 oz. bike bottle or 48 oz. is the length of a 24 oz. bike bottle, and I don't know many bikes that will take two 24 oz. bottles.

• Widefoot Litercage
• Velo Orange Mojave

 I have to say Brian, saying that working in a bike shop is toxic is pretty average.
It cost me $56,000 to complete a four year degree, about 12 years of paying it off through my tax, and I have never worked in my graduated field.
Not because of want, but studying what I did, I wasn’t made aware that getting a job in the field would be nearly impossible.
So now I make far less money doing something that I enjoy and makes me happy.
Not having a ‘qualification’ through some form of education isn’t the be all end all. A lot of people would be better off without their degree and learning more about life, which you probably get through working in a shop than going from a uni to a suit.

 I for one think the LBS is important but my local shops where i have lived are predominantly pretentious and shop rat driven. I am not an expert but have built and rebuilt many bikes through my years and don’t need to be talked down to. I think shops need to continue to be more service oriented and keep some of those parts on hand I.e. spokes, rims, bearings, bottom brackets, chains, cassettes etc. I know it’s a big ask but it seems like the way to survive. Or the other model like my new local shop does kayaks, climbing and some skiing too which I feel makes them more desirable and a better chance of survival. I know many do bikes and skis so it just depends on your locale.

 I love our LBS, and I would love to buy everything from them. Here's a problem with buying local that I've run into a bunch of times, maybe you've already addressed it. Most of the time the price is the same or maybe slightly higher at the LBS than online. But the delivery time to the shop is ridiculously long. I can get stuff from Amazon in 2 days, the shop has had to wait a couple weeks on some things. I can get stuff from Chain Reaction across the pond faster than that. Seems to me that the LBS are getting screwed by the distributors. I understand the shop may be partly to blame by waiting to put many items together for an order, but my impression has been that their delivery and freight charges are much slower and higher than mine as an individual ordering from an online shop. And this also seems to be a problem across the general outdoor industry.

 @mikelevy I’d like to hear the Pinkbike Podcast talk about this high-profile trail closure in Laguna beach:

www.lagunabeachindy.com/mountain-bikers-protest-trail-closure

As well as a somewhat related article-which I’d say is a strange attack on MTB:

www.lagunabeachindy.com/laguna-canyon-trail-takes-beating-from-mountain-bikers

Seems interesting to me the lengths they went to to close down a trail which had existed for decades, and that this may be starting a new trend in Laguna Beach/Aliso Viejo, which is a very popular riding area in Southern California.

This may be a classic case of environmentalism vs. mountain biking - how are we going to keep trails while there is increasing population density in areas like Southern California?

There is also an interesting thread on this here: forums.mtbr.com/california-socal/mtb-industry-destroying-itself-so-cal-1143627.html

 The best part about a bike shop is when you're getting ready to go ride and you realize that you need a random tiny part/service and you can just stop at the shop and get it done. No need to wait for your online order to show up, no need to research which part you need, just take the 30 minutes to stop at the shop and let the mechanic do what they do best.

 The future of bike shop is like the past of bike shops.
Bike boom is on the down curve.
Shops owned and run by real cyclists/mechanic will stay open as usual.
Industry milked the cow, there is nothing left (ebikes for kids... really?).

Lifestyle and investor stores are going to keep closing.

Same fate as all cycling publications. In x years, only the larger ones will survive (with scale down operations).

 Most of their money will be made off servicing and maintenance as others have said. They don't make a huge profit on bikes to begin with. More and more direct to consumer brands will pop up as prices get steeper and steeper and people wanting to save some money. I have a DTC bike and it's been great a year in! The warranty process might take a bit longer if needed, but it's worth it to save a few hundered, if not thousands on a bike. However, others will strongly disagree I am sure

 I like going to my LBS and asking them if a part is right for me from thiere personal experience . Riding the same trails as me. An LBS will carry parts they believe in so choice will be limited. The personal experience I get and the delicate job of suspension rebuilds and custom wheel building can not be replaced by the internet. Your local LBS, and internet sales will always be there.

 I love my LBS, but pretty much anything I - the super-nerd who works on their own bikes - want, they have to order. So they get maybe 25% of my parts ordering business? Used to be more but I live farther away now. I do spend a bunch more at their attached cafe.

I think the real value they and other good bike shops bring to their community is in helping folks new to cycling get on a safe bike that fits well, guiding folks who don't necessarily know what part they need to fix or upgrade their bike, service, and growing the cycling scene and keeping stoke up with group rides and community events (during normal times). Super-nerds are a relatively small component of most shops I've been to.

 Product managers ripping us off is what is causing people to look to direct sales. SX and NX parts, resin only Shimano rotors, hockey puck rubber compound tires creeping their way into $4000 aluminum and $5000 carbon builds. Overall bike weight creeping upwards smh. If I'm spending that much on a bike, I want the parts to function, and last.

 The bike shop in my town shut down, and it was a pity because they were good mechanics.. Leaving us with Halford, who have never even seen a bike like mine. Good guys, but rarely have experienced mechanics for higher end equipment. But I'm not surprised the town bike shop closed, because they held lots of bikes in stock, some very expensive.. And presumably not all of them sold, so they were stuck with an old bike. And in todays climate of constantly changing standards, i can understand why they might be reluctant to keep a load of bikes that are like ticking time bombs.. I'm even reluctant to buy a bike for myself these days, seeing how fast things become difficult to maintain when the tech 'moves on' So I can totally see why bike shops, if they stay open at all.. Will just become mechanic stations, where you either order a part and give it to them to fit.. Or they order it for you and fit it.

 @mikelevi we need a mechanic! Come over for the winter!
My main point when hiring, is similar to you. I want that person to actively ride bikes and like bikes. Specially here in Sedona, it needs to be the drive to want to live here.

 I hope they can adapt and survive and I will continue to support them even if I pay a little more and it's not always convenient anymore. A bike shop that doesn't sell bikes and relies on the service model is never going to thrive, so you will never see me on a mail order brand given how much bike shops have done to build up and establish the bike community of racers, riders, send trail workers all around the world.

 They are making a killing in my area, mark ups for service, parts, and bikes are through the roof!! They are also getting a PPE loan at 1% for $100k that they might not be even have to pay it back under Trump Welfare like the Farmers get!

 i have zero reason to go to the shop other than service they dont carry any higher end parts unless its XC or road groups and forget about anything that isnt shimano, sram or fox as for bikes same story, unless its light xc or road you cant get anything, especially less known brands LBS has some specialized bikes but only if you order them, other than that they have 2016 carbon demo on display which i guess they cant sell because its pretty much flat for like 400km around lol

 I'd love to hear ya'lls thoughts on carbon vs aluminum wheels. I switched back to alloy wheels a while back to reduce harshness when riding...but now I'm curious about riding a carbon wheelset with cushcore inserts. The weight would roughly be the same when compared to alloy, but you would get the added benefit of the stiffer wheels and tire support from the inserts.

 Pretty much the golden rule I’ve seen is the bigger and stronger the bike community the better shops they will have from a retail perspective and that most but not all have at least one competent lbs for service. I think any competent businessman can find a way to make a lbs profitable from a retail side (but limitations are usually community based, can’t sell bikes or apparel there isn’t a big enough market for) as long as they offer really high quality service and give something of value to the local community.


If I were to ever open a shop i think the only way I could
Offer something in my area is to locate near a trailhead and focus on community building. Cafe or bar for people
To meet up at. Big parking lot to act as alternate trail head. Emphasis on selling apparel, accessories, and parts rather than a floor of show bikes. Small demo/rental fleet that fits the local trail rather than having one size of a bunch of different bikes.

 Potential topic for discussion...do we focus too much on the equipment and not enough on skills? How much of an effect does having the best bike with the best parts have on performance? Does the average middle-of-the-road ability rider gain that much from buying anything more than the average middle-of-the-road bike?

 It's actually refreshing to listen to something in the bike media not just saying "support you lbs", I've never found a good, friendly bike shop. And I've really tried. I'm looking for that mythical place that has parts in stock, demo bikes (that aren't just rental bikes), and somewhere I can talk bikes. So far, I haven't found it. At the moment, I tend to try and support local shops with buying parts but, that is often a "hey, do you have an xyz?" "No, but we can order one in...", Which takes much longer, is less convenient, and costs much more than if I'd ordered online.

 I actually started hitting up my shop for more parts this year. There were a few items where I knew I'd have to pay full price + tax. In those situations I definitely choose the shop. Interestingly, the last bike purchase I made was online, but it was also tied to my lbs. I got a about 30% off and free shipping. Not bad!

 I purchase some stuff online but if it's not a urgent need in terms of time I'll get it from my LBS. Why? One reason, good people. I truly enjoy my visits to my LBS even if it's just to pick up a little something like a CO2 cartridge or some gel shots. They most always have time to chat about the happenings in the bike industry, racing scene or get my feed back on things I've purchased there before. To me, great customer service is that which makes you feel like you're working together on an issue no matter if it's a new bike, purchasing upgrade components, fixing a problem or how something you've already purchased is working for you. IMPO, that's how to keep your customer coming back and stay in business. I'll gladly shuck out a few extra bucks for that kind of excellent personal interaction/service.

 As one of the many who spent my 20"s working at local mom & pop bike shop bike shop in the 90"s. I have a few comments and call outs.
1. 90's online retailers like Supergo (RIP) and Colorado Cyclist were killing us on costs for Shimano parts. Customers would constantly as us to price match, but often the prices we had to match were our cost. I was a shop employee and I was ordering my parts from these retailers. We would refuse to exchange parts with persons who came into the shop with internet brought parts who brought the wrong size bottom bracket or chainring. There may be some historical memory of persons being told that the local shop would not trade/exchange/swap an internet brought part. I think that was a fair practice and have no regrets. We were happy to install internet brought parts, but you were going to pay a premium.
2. There are not many industries where you have 10's to 100's of thousands of dollars tied up in goods with an expiration date (when the new models come out) only to make small margins. I don;t know if the methods of shops buying inventory has changed over the years, but no one got rich in the 90's owning a bike shop. There was much better margins on clothing and accessories.
3. We also had a local character who frequented our bike shop for repairs. We called him "speedo man". Let your imagination wander and you will be correct.
4. Like Levy, those were the best years of my life.

 I feel like you guys really underappreciate the one unbeatable advantage that bike shops have over online, which is that you can come in and actually try different frame sizes. Thats such a huge thing, especially if you're in between sizes. If I would have had the chance to try the framesize, I probably would have bought my Commencal in the right size. Online sizing tools aren't that useful usually.

 Where the hell is Waki these days? Have I missed a massive moment in comments?

 Most bikeshops in the sports market have both a physical as well as an online branch. This even goes for the big ones like CRC. If the shop is near to you, you may typically only visit the physical shop. If it is a bit further away, their website becomes more interesting. Especially with all these changing standards, you may need to look further for your 10sp drivetrain components and 26" wheel accessories. So that's the power of offering your stuff online. There is a bigger market so it pays to stock stuff that would otherwise be too niche. With at the end of the day, helps everyone.

In the utility/commuter market, the physical shop will never die. Not everyone who needs to travel from A to B has to skill (or even cares to learn) to perform an overhaul. True wheels, service an internal geared hub etc. And because your bike/mobility is so important in this market, they can actually offer you something. If you bought the bike here, we'll try to fix the bike the same day and you can borrow a bike to keep going for the time being. This is kind of essential for most people in this market whereas in the sports/recreation market, you can usually get along just fine for the day or even a few days. Plus of course most consumers are willing to replace parts themselves (and these bikes are easier to work on too) so they may not even be that much interested in the kind of service a bike shop is willing to give.

That said, those e-bike systems (battery, motor, computer etc) seem like big black boxes that are hardly user serviceable so even in the sports/recreational market I can imagine this is where physical bike shops may still have the edge over the home mechanic.

 I think key is moving brick and mortar online. Any shop that would let me schedule my service online would have all my money.

 Servicing suspension without gloves is VERY TOXIC! organo-phosphates are similar to agent orange. By the time you feel sick it's too late. Always wear good rubber gloves when handling fork oils.

 this is for brian park - your voice lapses into vocal fry pretty often and it is annoying, no offense to you or what you're saying, but it becomes difficult to listen to you when your already low voice lowers even more to be creaky. I bet I'm not the only person who's noticed this? If I am, well, I take it back.

 @mikelevy I have an XXL TB3 and it drives me bonkers that there is only one cage mount. They could have fit two! I need the Wizard Staff water bottle! What is it?

 So did Kazimer ride this past weekend

 i've been waiting for someone to address the 'percentage' increase but just being pedantic

 Compound is most important. If you don't believe it try the Magic Mary bikepark compound tire, it's so bad it's dangerous!

 No comment gold? :sad face:

 Mechanic-run workshop with on site tool rental for self-wrenching, and preferential delivery for online ordering. No other way. And beer & coffee and a couch.

 If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around, did Kazimer ride his bike?

 $2k-4k is A LOT of money for most people. It is hard to be inclusive at that price point.

 @mikelevy summed up in one minute everything wrong with bike shops @ 40:00... Spot on.

 Now we know why so many people follow Levy into the bathroom

 You guys really hate 27.5 tires I can tell.

 I go to a shop because fox won't sell me stuff directly