The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 13 - Are Bikes Too Regular Now?

 Learning to pedal, hard, repeatedly, for a long time > literally any bike technology. I've ridden with people on fully rigid 29ers with 'dated' geometry who would crush 90% of the commenters here.

You, reading this - you KNOW it's true. You know power training will make you faster, but you don't do it. You know eating better and getting enough sleep will improve your riding, but you don't do that either.

You're willing to be mediocre at a sport you claim to love because browsing parts, reviews, and commentary on the internet is easier than training hard and getting faster.

Stop doing this. Start doing what you *know* will yield results. There isn't one weird trick, part, or setting - you know this too.

Do the work you know you need to do.

 @tempest3070: dude it’s fun to ride and chill not everybody wants to go full try hard. Bike tech is neat and interesting to geek out over at times. Let people enjoy things.

 @tempest3070: "browsing parts, reviews, and commentary on the internet" is also something I can do at work, when things are slow... Power training is not something I can do sitting at my desk appearing to be working. Most people bike for fun, taking it super serious can ruin it.

 @tempest3070: Not everybody needs to go full Type A roadie to get the most enjoyment from the sport. We are not paid to ride perpetually stronger and faster. Fitness and diet will help in the prevention of and recovery from injury, but otherwise, some of us don't feel the need to be "power training" to be perpetually faster.

 @tempest3070: That sounds more like a job than a hobby. No thanks.

 @herzalot: Yep. In my experience the type that are always chasing fitness improvements are also the type to avoid jumps, drop, and steep tech trails because an injury would interfere with their fitness goals. Amateur riders, I mean, pros are a different story.

 @tempest3070: lol! Not one of the things you mentioned about getting "better" at riding has ever interested me in 30 years of loving the sport.

 @tempest3070: I must do a different version of mountain biking to you for the last 25+ years because I throughly enjoy it and enjoy looking at reviews too. I will always get to the top but have no interest in rushing.
I enjoy the whole package. Its a hobby. If I want to suffer I go running. And no, I never strava an mtb ride because why?

 We actually talk about this in the podcast and tbh I think it’s kind of lame to shame mediocre riders for having good bikes. It’s a hobby, and everyone’s got their personal skill sets.

 @brianpark: yeah it's mega lame. Bike shaming is just pathetic. I was bike shamed for having a Walmart bike in highschool back in the day then bike shamed when I got my first "real" mountain bike because it was old and used. Now getting bike shamed for having a nice fairly current bike? Like come on!

 I gotta agree with @chriskneeland and @tempest3070 I don't think either are saying train to be an olympic athlete, but riding bikes will always be more fun than buying bikes or geeking out on tech for me. Not shaming here, but I think a lot of people would benefit from not drinking the kool aid and marketing dribble and actually trying to ride more. We need another Return to Earth 30 day ride challenge!

 @tempest3070: Yes and No. As someone that DOES put in 100 miles a week power training, I gotta say it helps me enjoy riding a lot, and I mean A LOT. More than most care to admit.

But also, I started to work on drills and a lot of them, like 30 laps of a jump line every week, corner drills, drop drills, endless drills. Wow, that made a huge difference. And yeah an ebike helps with the drills too. Shock, horror. So for me at least, drills made me faster than power.

 @noplacelikeloam: some people ride because it's fun. Nothing wrong with practicing skills. Good for you but that's not for everyone. Even if I had the time to I wouldn't. I'd be going for longer more epic rides.

 @makripper: Thats fair. Good for you! I feel like that would take me even longer. Ha! The irony!

 @TerrapinBen: Could not agree more. It seems like some of the replies are really taking @tempest3070 comment to heart as though its a personal attack haha. Improving your skills can mean a variety of things and doesn't have to be this grandiose goal. Even just bunnyhopping a log you'd go around is a positive gain riding and mentally. It's fun to ride, but it's also fun to get stoked on setting a goal and achieving it.

 @chriskneeland: Sometimes the comment section reminds me of excited zoo monkeys either flinging shit or masturbating depending on if they like the geometry of a bike or not.

 @noplacelikeloam: Deliberate practice, whether it's reps on the bar, reps on the jumps, push ups, or whatever - training to improve will always *always* trump part geek improvements.

This seems to have really hit a nerve, which is in itself an interesting comment on the state of this site.

Y'all, this isn't *attacking* you or (god forbid) shaming you for owning a good component on your bike. Look, I ride. I have carbon parts. I have had every range of bike out there price wise and I'm telling YOU (the person who may be reading this right now, yeah you) that getting better at the thing you love doing isn't going to come from spending time reading / listening to speculation / theory-crafting about the latest and greatest geometry or bar width or god knows what else.

Improvement will come from effort and consistency - whether that's pump-track time, gym time, miles in the saddle, whatever. Bike park laps clipped in on a bike with a 66 degree head angle.

You know who you are and if you're reading this and wondering what the big secret is that separates you from the fast (and I mean *really* fast) riders that must have more time, better parts, personal trainers, excuses, excuses - the thing that's slowing you down isn't going to be solved by neg-propping this comment either. You can ride 'just for fun' but you'd be faster with better training.

You can have 'just for fun' on a 6 year old bike with worn out parts too, so don't give me that 'I don't care about speed' argument - you wouldn't be commenting rabidly on bleeding edge geometery changes and $1000 USD forks if that were the case. Better high-speed compression circuits aren't just for fun.

The thing that's slowing you down is you. No excuses, just improve.

This message will either land with you or it won't, but you'll know it when it does.

 @brianpark: Nobody's shaming anyone [though I think I saw 'Type A roadie' up a little further in the comments thread, so I won't speak to the intent there] and I think your take is based on a pretty disingenuous read of what I'm saying.

> I just hate listening to all the same old excuses why they can't ride a certain section of trail year after year, only to hear about how great all the recent updates on their new bike are. Take that shit to goon town.

> And no disrespect to mediocre riders. I'm one myself. But I ride to progress. Not nut out on over-hyped gear that never actually equates to better riding.

Totally agreed here.

 @tempest3070: when ur only bothered about clearing 40ft gaps it doesn’t matter I think lack of sleeps a good idea as you tend to think less

 @clink83: never mind the podcast tell me more about these excited zoo monkeys.

 Yeah, most of us don't need our fancy toys. We're not racing professionally. Seconds don't matter. They're just Shiny and fun. Comments are entertaining, but let's turn down the attitude a bit team. Working class folks ride yetis because they're rad bikes and are attainable luxury, super well off folks buy giants because they're great value. Xtr is the best for some because of how it shifts, axs for others because no wires. None of this is really an objective science, and everyone's opinion (about bikes) is ok.

 @tempest3070: what gets me most is the folks who preach. Aka you have to get this, that is garbage, x is objectively better (hear this one about 29ers a lot, ignoring that max speed doesn't define fun for everyone). At the end of the day all that matters is that folks get out and enjoy themselve.

 @chriskneeland:

Whose excuses are you listening to Chris? Maybe find some new people to roll with?

 @tempest3070: Didn't really hit a nerve for me, but I couldn't care less if people want to geek out over the latest and greatest bike part, or they want to engage in highly structured "power training" to get faster and stronger. I find it interesting when people such as yourself insist that comparison to others and perpetual improvement is and should be everybody's goal. I don't have to be better than anybody to enjoy the sport - nor do I have to have better equipment than others to enjoy the sport.

 @clink83: you can't like a geometry until you've used it for long enough to test it's tolerances

 @tempest3070: sounds like you aren't fun to bike with. If people aren't up to certain sections don't crap on them for it

 @tempest3070: I was riding my rigid single speed 29 last night - soooooo much fun even if you aren't going as fast.

 @tempest3070: you're making a fundamental assumption there, which is that the reason people ride is to progress or ride better or faster or whatever. And yeah obviously training (skills or strength or fitness or whatever) will do a lot more for riding ability than new bike parts. But being a better rider isn't the only part of riding bikes that people enjoy (if it was, I wouldn't have enjoyed riding for the past 10 years, since I haven't really gotten much better in that time). There's also the social side, there's the "hey I have a cool new toy" side, there's the geeking out on new stuff side, there's the fact that some bikes/parts are more fun to ride, easier to ride, faster to ride, more suited for what you're riding, there's the interest in new technology, there's the interest in the how and the why of bike design. If you can even remotely empathise with the kind of person who would buy a brand new car or a $1000 iphone to have a fun new toy then it's hardly unreasonable to see how people would derive enjoyment from something about mountain biking besides their actual ability level. When I ride, the people I see who are the most stoked are not always the best riders. Ability level or fitness does not directly correlate with enjoyment of the sport.

 I don’t think people like @tempest3070

 @nskerb:

 @Socket: Totally agree, loving our sport can be based on so many aspects of it!

 @Ooofff: yet look at how many people are responding and justifying themselves to a total stranger. Maybe instead of improving their riding, people should work on their mental toughness. Haha

 @nyhc00: Conversation is not a sign of mental weakness - just sayin' Now if there were name calling involved, yes - mental weakness.

 @clink83: but I have two hands

 @ceecee: now I'm afraid

 @WasatchEnduro: Guess you don't know what it means to be a regular at a bike park.

 @Ooofff: it’s because he is gatekeeping mountain biking.

 He’s talking about bikes ! not the people ( unskilled) unlike you’re awesome self lmao

 @tempest3070: I have acquaintances that solve everything by buying a new component (new brakes, new DVO, new dropper...) and they truly believe the new part will make them better.

Sure, new parts are nice, and many times they can make a bit of a difference (for instance, changing a crappy fork for a half-decent one is very noticeable, while changing a nice fork for a dentist one is not), but that's not what makes you ride better, particularly on bikes that you only have to point in the general direction of down and slightly turn here and there, while it plows through everything in comfort.

 @brianpark: I concur: we should shame everyone for whatever reason.

 Yeah, I'd also love to see this. My local shop has an old Yeti Ultimate hanging on the wall, always wondered what that would be like to ride.

 @tempest3070: our tech editorial team (Kaz, Levy, Dan, & Dan) isn't beholden to any brands. I work hard to ensure that their work remains independent. If we evaluate some old bikes to modern standards it won't be at the behest of a brand, and the verdicts will be the reviewers' own.

 @brianpark: you should get into politics. It would be easier than dealing with pinkbike commentors

 @makripper: ehhh you're all good shit. The knee-jerk cynicism gets old, but I do think it's good for people to be skeptical of the media and hold us accountable.

 @brianpark: that's exactly what a well-trained shill would say!

 I've got an old Banshee Wildcard frame that I'd donate to this. I make no guarantees regarding its mechanical condition

 @brianpark: I'll give you my old Yeti 303RDH if you do a complete review of it.

 As someone that is on a bit older bike with a chain stay that would be considered too short, a front center that would be considered too short, too slack of seat tube too steep of head tube I wonder if when I go to get a “modern” bike if I will miss some of the playfulness. I really have no frame of reference. Was gonna demo a bike once but they wanted it back in an hour. Not gonna make a half lap when the fun stuff is up higher.

 Don’t mind my spelling…

I was seriously thinking of buying a new trail/am frame for my trailriding in the alps, which means most of the time balancing, trackstands and lifting the back wheel around tight switchbacks at slow speed. For this kind of riding the current "regular" geometries are unsuitable unless I am willing to buy a small frame at 5’11, or spending money on a custom built frame.
I have been wondering a lot lately – Can It be, that I am the only one, who thinks, that modern geometries are the spawn a downhillish speed cult, sacrificing their false gods all the lovable traditional characteristics of sub 150mm bikes (f.e. snappiness, playfulness, agility)?

 @Cirest: Santa Cruz 5010 is the ticket!

 @iantmcg: I switched from a 150mm 27.5 with a with a 1205mm wheel base to a 130mm 29er with modern geo but short chain stays and 1235mm wheel base. I would say I would only prefer my old bike when I ride with a group that is big time noticeably slower. Example, party ride with all our friends and their kids. Even if I'm just dicking around by myself or the wife, I want my modern geo.

 @Cirest: maybe a Stumpjumper (Not the EVO)?
66.5 headangle and not too long.

 @Cirest: sounds like you might as well save money and buy used. Put in some new frame bearings, rebuild the shock or get a new on and use the savings on an awesome bike trip.

 Kona process is still kinda short, the 5010 is kinda short, there are more

 @Cirest: I hear what you're saying, and agree that things are going too far in some regards, but as someone who loves poppy nimble riding, some movement towars the new Geo isn't bad. It just takes a few rides to really gel with it, but once it clicks, moderate new Geo is pretty solid (6' riding a large druid). I absolutely wouldn't go back to my large 2014 Troy, nor would I want to go any longer. I tried a 2020 sight and it felt like riding an armchair. Also, rider forward Geo really is good, especially for techy punchy climbing, amd without some growth in length bikes would be super cramped.

 @Dogl0rd: If you want to go shorter just buy a smaller frame size, but frames used to be silly shot?

 @aljoburr: yeah doesn't Josh Bryceland ride a medium or something?

 @mgrantorser:
Agreed, I’m also 6’/6’1 and the 465mm reach on my endorphin feels just about perfect. I’ve owned bikes with 445 reach (too short) and 488 (way too long, even with a tiny stem). The Druid is the dream!

I think the industry has jumped the shark with “progressive” larges these days having 480-500 reach. Maybe great if you only ever haul ass in a straight line, but not much fun for playing around.

 @Cirest: I agree with you.
They invented gravel bikes to fix this (!).

 Billable shitting hours

 Sounds like my regular Pinkbike break.

 @iainmac-1: I sneak it into overhead on heavy days

 What do we call "really slack"? And what's "really slack" five years from now?

 I think it's pretty clear what's happening here with how long it's taken.
What we know: They've gone through the engineering - they've made a prototype - they've tested it.
They already have a marketing machine reaching a broad audience.

In depth review will be released along with the production model of the bike - which has been delayed by the pandemic.

 @skeeple: it's entirely possible.

 But they look cool AF!!!!!

 @brianpark: But would you dare to paint it pink if that were to happen?

 True and we want it to be affordable.

 All I'm saying is look into it.

 Press fit bb isn't boring. Try fitting an eccentric bb in a standard threaded shell! (Phil's, trickstuff are beside the point)

 Wouldn't want your BB to be too exciting...

 Either conservative or ultra wild. Nothing in between.

 SPD sandals

 Is it grim?

 Nah, if linkage forks were cheaper than telescopic forks (for similar or better performance) we'd just ride those.

 @vinay: they always come back then disappear again. Linkage forks were the forks to have in the 90's

 @vinay: I recently bought a Trust Message as I was in the market for a new fork and it was heavily discounted. Thought I'd take a chance just to try something different really. After owning double figure numbers of telescopic forks it is a welcome relief.

 Vapourware at this point, but it's reasonable to think that the future could be simpler/stronger/cheaper hardware and more complex and integrated software. I also don't know if it's a given that an electronic system needs to be high maintenance.

Pure speculation of course. It's equally likely that hardware will get more complicated, and software will compound that complexity.

 @brianpark: Thanks, Brian.

I think it will certainly be higher maintenance, when including recharging, battery replacement, extra cable routing and electronic seals/gaskets failure, which will be on top of the 100-200 hr service interval of (almost all) existing suspension. That's something I'd happily take for far better performance and they could definitely do it, just no one is courageous enough to throw R&D dollars after Live Valve.


IMO there's a couple of ways they could go with this that would be far better than existing suspension. I think they should make the shock tune non-static, selecting between several (pre-selected by the rider) tunes which the electronics chooses, based on what it detects the rider doing (climbing, descending, cornering, etc).
Ohlins look like they're going that way from a patent they filed last year.

An other could be that tuning changes are mapped directly from what the rider wants (more suppleness, more ramp up, etc) to changes in the shock settings. This would be similar to the shockwiz but helping to better visualise the tradeoff that's made when changing settings. That seems to me to be the way for the software to reduce the complexity of suspension while giving all the adjustments possible. It's easy to tune a simple LSR & LSC shock, but hard to tune LSR, LSC, HSR, HSC, tokens, spring rate and initial suppleness (OTT). Mapping these settings to functional terms would make an electronic shock better than a complex mechanical shock.

Simply monitoring the stiction of the shock/fork to give a reminder when the air sleeve/piston is gummed-up and needs cleaning would be nice too. It'd probably make more of a difference than a climb control working on velocity (rebound/compression) circuits.

My 2c, but I really want them to make this work.

 @ozhuck2flat: I think we'll see some more electronic suspension stuff soon.

 We've been over this. A bike for $2000 would have been $1350 in the year 2000. And would have been only HALF the bike of a $2000 bike today. Inflation is a thing.

I'm not a dentist either, but I have about $15000 worth of bicycles (actual paid value). I also have no tv, and drive a cheap economy car. Pick your priorities.

 @JSTootell: exactly. Whenever a non cyclist tries to say anything about the cost of my bike..."how much do you spend a month on cable?" We have different priorities obviously.

Bikes aren't cheap...nothing is cheap.

 @mikelevy how could we forget?

 Came to post this. Trying to think of strange or unique bikes and forgot about the weirdest of them all...

 Trust fork, Robot/Atherton, machined Pole frames, gearbox bikes, the suspension used by Polygon/Marin...

 @brianpark: All good. Look for lots of noise from us this year about new full-linkage offerings that will spice up this conversation.

 We talk about almost all of those things in the podcast.

 @brianpark: I'll probably find out on my run tonight...

 On the pipeline (newer one, not original) and it was sketchy as

 Probably drawn by Disney then.

 Taj drew a different microphone in there but it was too fancy. I told him that Levy's more of a "beat up SM58 kind of guy"... I guess it's a bit freudian.

 @brianpark: Lol, I think it's awesome

 I think that's when your bike comes with a Starbucks gift card.