The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 143 - Pole's Leo Kokkonen on Recycling, Internet Comments, & E-Bike Batteries
Art by Taj Mihelich
Pole’s founder, Leo Kokkonen, is behind some of the wildest bikes - and manufacturing methods - in the cycling industry. The Finnish company's Machine and Stamina frames were milled from solid blocks of billet aluminum before each side was glued (and bolted, depending on when it was manufactured) together to create something completely unlike the carbon and welded aluminum frames we're used to seeing. Kokkonen was also an early proponent of the much longer geometry that's common today, especially steep seat angles and slacker head angles, and was touting the benefits of his Huck Norris tire inserts long before most of us got behind the idea.
But much of that has been an uphill battle; there was resistance to his ideas about geometry, very public failures like our Stamina test bike back in 2019, and too long wait times for production and warranty frames.
Today's episode sees Leo Kokkonen and I talk about all that and more, including recycling aluminum waste, e-bike batteries and the environment, and his interactions in the Pinkbike comment section.
THE PINKBIKE PODCAST // EPISODE 143 - POLE'S LEO KOKKONEN ON RECYCLING, INTERNET COMMENTS, & E-BIKE BATTERIES
Sept 8th, 2022
No carbon, no welds, but definitely some glue, batteries, and controversy.
Featuring a rotating cast of the editorial team and other guests, the Pinkbike podcast is a weekly update on all the latest stories from around the world of mountain biking, as well as some frank discussion about tech, racing, and everything in between.
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1. Leo comes across a lot more sympathetic than he does when he’s writing comments or whatever. After listening to this, I think I could hang and have a beer with the guy. I might even consider buying a Pole.
2. Mike does a pretty good job asking tough follow-ups and challenging him on some of his answers. Mike and Henry were pretty self-deprecating about being real journalists, but Mike deserves a lot of credit here in regard to that. Well done.
I would still love to hear Leo's answer on which bike (apart from Nicolai) he would ride.
Not cool. Not cool at all. And I'm sure ECPA would have opinions on that too....
Cheers for the response! PB is probably my most frequented site on all the web, even if I'm a grumpy f*cker I do appreciate the work you guys do.
Outside+ though.... they can f*ck right off.
Guy must be smart, but has this point all wrong
A 60-day lead time from China means that for 30 days, half a mil will float on the Pacific ocean. We could efficiently run our 50 bike daily CNC shop overheads with half a mil working capital. Furthermore, made-to-order bikes are always the right volume, the right model, the right size, and the right color. Therefore, there's no excessive stock.
During this year, we reduced labor by 70%. Next year we will cut machining time by 30%. So, next year, if we want to make 50 bikes per day, we'll need 35 machines instead of 50.
Btw, the comments section of a Voima with a linkage fork review would probably kill the site.
I wonder how the economic crisis in EU will affect the industry? With rising energy prices, crazy inflation in the cost of aluminum I wonder if in a year from now, EU manufacturers will be able to source the materials and funds to produce competitively priced bikes?
The car industry is consolidating and gradually moving to China. I hate the thought of my next bike frame coming from a generic noname producer selling it on Aliexpress.
I post here the link about lithium recycling: www.fortum.com/products-and-services/fortum-battery-solutions/recycling
Podcast idea. How about a discussion of mountain bike race formats that have disappeared. I'm relatively new to mountain biking and noticed a bit of PB chatter about 4X which is generally followed by a comment stating its dead. I had no idea what the format was before jumping on google. There must be more. You could break down the format, where it was raced, who raced it, what types of bikes were used for the format, how it eveloved why it died.
Peeps don't have to agree with everything Leo says, but you have to respect his thought process and his openers.
That was great. Can we have an "episode of the year" award? I'd vote for this episode and the Mikes' Stone King podcast (previous years would have been the RC life stories).
With Pole machining each frame as customers order them, has there been any thought of custom sizing or more standard sizes? I guess the same question could be asked about geometry, as well. Apologies if I missed you and Mike talking about it.
Would love to hear more @cosaleo and perhaps hear @sebstott take on it too.
Experimenting is fun, even when it goes too far
I absolutely love my evolink and would have loved to buy a stamina but it was just too pricey for me. I do struggle a bit with the Voima looks, but I agree that performance is what bikes should be designed for. But the stamina was so damn pretty in reality!
Leo, when you open up your PNW manufacturing facility, give me a call. ☺️
A good interview and honest, open answers from Leo.
I bought a Taival HT last year, and it is a blast! I am on the Pole riders group on FB, and from the comments, they have definitely upped their Customer Service game in the last 2 years (even if they could still use my help )
Getting older now, so seriously looking at a Voima to replace my FS ride.
Given the relatively quick turn-around time on new prototypes with Pole’s CNC production, my ideal version would be with a Pinion gearbox and belt drive in the space left by the electric motor. Now there’s a comment that will really get lots of negative responses! From MikeLevy if no one else
While in its infancy Carbon recycling is real and about to become much larger scale.
Your sister website had a great podcast that I think you should mention to listeners as a follow up to this one to clear the water.
cyclingtips.com/2022/04/nerd-alert-podcast-recycling-carbon-fiber-is-no-longer-a-pipe-dream
A podcast episode centering on what different levels of riders do for aux & off season fitness would be awesome. Pedaling is arguably only half the body after all, navigating body weight fitness vs weights vs machines like the rip row seems like there could be a good amount to talk about to meet riding focused goals. PB racing PT as a guest perhaps?
Also, as an engineer, I take issue with non-engineers calling themselves engineers.
One more thing; a straight line is not always the stiffest (source: I am a civil engineer).
Maybe one last thing: there is a company called Carbon Fiber Recycling that does exactly what their name implies. Your sister website Cycling Tips did an interview with them.
Other than that, enjoyed listening to the podcast and I certainly like seeing smaller companies continue pushing the boundaries.
Manufacturing the frames in house through cnc should have a much lower environmental impact just because of the reduced shipping compared to drawing tubes, then shipping them to assembly into frames elsewhere, then shipping them to heat treating, then shipping them to paint/ bike final assembly.
Eliminating multiple shipping steps is s substantial lower environmental impact.
I'm not an engineer, I just fix stuff that engineers should have seen coming. I'm in testing and evaluation.
Anyone can build a bridge, only engineering can give you a bridge that just *barely* stays up, is as cheap as possible to build, in a short timeframe.
In most modern countries professional engineers are required to certify the safety and integrity of things “designed” by architects and industrial designers for good reason.
In Canada the title of “engineer” and practice of “engineering” is protected by law.
Designing and building something is not engineering. Leo's limited engineering understanding was evident during the interview. But that doesn't mean Leo doesn't design and build good bikes because bikes aren't skyscrapers or suspension bridges :-)
People understand my position better when I call myself an engineer instead of an industrial designer. I'm an entrepreneur and CEO, but these titles also don't mean much. My job is a full-day job. I test-ride our bike, manage our marketing and the business, and oversee the operations. I'm a hands-on guy.
I don't claim myself as an engineer because engineering, for example, a bridge, would need more knowledge, which I sure don't have. But bikes I can create damn well. Some people call me a renaissance man, but I think using that title myself before I'm old may be too much.
If you have an older bike and there is one main thing bothering you, do you fix that one thing or do you start saving for the next bike?
My situation is I was going to go mullet with my build and opted out at the last minute for the wheel set. So I have a 27.5 wheel on a 29 fork. I am dealing with wheel flop because of the 51mm offset on tight trails and it is driving me nuts. I think swapping to a 27.5 fork would help but will I just find the next thing that bothers me?
The bigger question is, what quality were you looking for when you decided to increase the front wheel diameter?
@housem8d: Probably but not for this.
@tremeer023: I never really wanted the 29, I just rationalized the fork purchase with the idea of mullet.
I get it, man, but whewwwww
Question: what bike companies are passionate, non corpo, worth buying a bike from? GG, Reeb, Foes, banshee,nicolai, starling, cotic, plenty uk companies...last, raaw, revel, spot, transition, contra, forbidden, deviate, knolly? any more? stanton, curtis
-curious about Nukeproof,??? like their bikes but dont know anything cept sam hill rips on them.
Also Scor looks cool but dont know anything besides -BMC supported
-corpo brands?: special ed, trek, giant, SC, Orbea, IBIS, yeti, pivot, scott, BMC/Scor? / commencal, evil, kona, devinci, rocky, norco, yt, canyon, mondraker?, marin, cannondale,
I like Nukeproof but it's owned by CRC, and they make carbon bikes. Therefore it doesn't fit into my spec.
My list would be:
1. Nicolai
2. Commencal
3, Nukeproof
Let me know if you think there are some other brands that would fit the spec, and I think about it