The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 196 - The Industry Ideas That Just Keep Coming Back
Art by Taj Mihelich
In this week's podcast, Dario, Kaz and Matt join me to talk about what they wish would come back, and what they hope goes forever. There are lukewarm takes, some strange tangents and some ideas that are just flatly antiquated and wrong.
Featuring a rotating cast of the editorial team and other guests, the Pinkbike podcast is a weekly update on all the latest stories from around the world of mountain biking, as well as some frank discussion about tech, racing, and everything in between.
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Music Corner
Kazimer's picks:
Matt's picks:
Henry's picks:
Dario's picks:
Author Info:
Must Read This Week
BMX background
Henry saying something philosophical
Kaz and skinnies
Henry's Spire
Cable tourism
I might start a PB Podcast drinking game or Bingo card.
Much love to the PB crew, keep up the good work!
A slightly downward tilted saddle is better for riding on flat surfaces, and way better for riding uphill due to the position on the bike and the hip position.
Let's unpack the hip position first.
a) If you ever did a squat, you would know that your legs are strongest when your legs are almost straight when getting up. That's also the reason why you have your saddle up.
b) If you raise your legs, your quads have to extend. One of the main muscles which extend your knee is the Rectus Femoris, a muscle which goes all the way up to the front of your hip. As we know from a) this muscle can't perform all too well in this position.
c) Now picture yourself in the saddle. In this hypothectical scenario, you have infinite saddle grip, however you sit. If your saddle would be tilted 80° to the ground, your quads are shortened and can perfrom at their best. If your saddle would be tilted 80° to the sky, you would sit in a very cramped position and couldn't perform well.
- Of course, in the real world there is grip, and you want to relax your legs a bit while sitting down, but it's just for explanation.
Now that we talked about hip position, let's look at climbing.
If you ride uphill, your bike tilts backwards with both wheels, as Henry stated. But let's put it in an extreme position, a 45° climb. If you sit in the normal position, your front wheel lifts off. To compensate for that, you lean forward, shifting the weight to the front. While doing so, your hip will be closed (less space between stomach, hip, and quads). If we talk about a 90° wall, you would basically fold in half. You also don't want to be in this position, as your core would have to fight gravity (like an L-sit just the other way around), so you would wish that your saddle would be flat to the earth's gravitational pull.
Now we just need the perfect balance, as all things should be balanced.
If we check our elevation map after our rides we have climbs and descents. Let's say, for agrument's sake, you ride in a standing position on all descends with a 5° angle or more. The climbs are not steeper than 15° (in this argument).
Henry said, he wants to have a flat saddle position, as this is his most comfortable position.
If we would look at the average gradient without descends more than 5° as we stand up to ride them down.
For argument's sake, the average gradient is 6° up. This would mean that the hip is on average, 6° closed due to the riding position. If we would tilt the saddle 6° down, the avarage hip angle would be 0, or neutral.
This position allows the hip flexors to be more open and streched (they are shortened due to sitting time in chairs, in the office, cars etc. anyway) as well as the Rectus Femoris to produce more power.
As Henry mentioned, the saddle tilt downwards leads to more weight on the front of the bike, therefore your wrists, which is the goal on climbs, another reason why the seat tube angle is rising. A downwards pointing saddle does that on flat bits as well, which might be sub-optimal.
- However, you could just tilt your saddle 3° down, which would make the climbs not as good as they could possibly be, but at the same time make the riding on the flat bits less stressful for your wrists.
Additionally, recent studies show that an downwards tilting saddle could increase the power output, even on flat surfaces, and we all know that a increase power output can lead to further, faster, or easier rides.
As conclusion, a downward tilting saddle can be beneficial for your riding and your body, due to the more open hip position, especially on climbs.
I do agree with @henryquinney on the rise, rise means up, I'll defend the hill with you.
Also modern ski touring setups do let you reduce how close your heels get to skis during uphill travel (so basically high heels)
Ok, now I'm thinking about stiff boots (which is how the crampons actually work). This leads me to wonder if perhaps soft soled shoes begat mid sole cleat placement begat steep seat angles begat short cranks…
I’m probably not being clear but I’m going for a ride now
I think we'll begin to see more bikes employing high pivot/idler designs married to prior linkage types. One notable problem with single/high pivot designs is the relatively high antirise and impact of braking forces on the suspension dynamics. These are less of an issue (an maybe even preferrable) for true racers - but for the mountain bike enthusiast who still does a fair bit of brake dragging to control speed, it presents a bit of an issue. This is why Forbidden is in the process of converting their fleet to high pivot "horst" link (one of their engineers said this directly when interviewed about the new Druid).
Similarly, the benchmark Specialized Enduro is an amazing bike, aside from the fact that it has amongst the worst chaingrowth/pedal kickback of any current enduro rig. Imagine the exact suspension kinematics/leverage of the Enduro platform in a high pivot version to deliver an even more rearward axle path, and with 1.3% vs. 6.8% chain growth. That thing would be a MONSTER.
I actually think that the current Enduro I referenced does exactly what you've suggested in terms of how it is more or less tuned to deliver many of the benefits of a high pivot, without being a high pivot (rearward axle path, good anti-squat, etc.). That said, the pedal kickback on it is severe (I own one), and that is a major drawback.
That's why I long for that exact bike (from a kinematics perspective) tuned into a high pivot design with no chain growth.
(Part of my job involves assessing biomechanics - I'd suggest all the glute/hip/quads stuff is a minimal factor, I'd say it's more about not having the reaction forces from a relatively upward seat angle trying to slide your centre of mass rearwards as the bike points up).
As a human that is 6’ 1 1/2” tall, with a 30.5” inseam, bike fit is pretty hard. So, I’m running 10mm of spacers, a 50mm Thomson bmx stem, and some 3.5” chromoly riser bars from Defiance frameworks, on an xL Bird Aether 9 with 529mm reach, and a 210mm dropper (I could go 240), and 155mm cranks.
Best fitting bike I’ve ever had. I’d like to hear more conversation not just about height, but maybe inseam to torso ratio, ape index (which I’ve heard mentioned recently), and other factors in how a bike needs to fit.
I’d be down to discuss my reasoning on any of these parts!
I think the conversation on overall mountain bike fit is only beginning, will be another decade or so until it's commonly practiced. I think we have to give kudos to brands that make 'bigger' bikes without necessarily increasing seat tube length proportionally - makes bike fit a lot more customizable.
My bars have a decent amount of sweep too. I think they match up pretty close to a cr high pro taper dirt bike bar, so it makes sense that I like them.
The way I see it, I have a torso pretty comparable to an human that’s 6’4” or so. With low standover and long droppers, along with the short cranks, my reach needs to match my torso most importantly.
Have you tried short cranks yet?
-purple anodised parts,
-silver rims
-skinwall tires...
By that logic @henryquinney is right setting the bars so the rise is vertical.
If the bars are rolled back so the rise is parallel to the head angle the rise would shorten the reach just the same as headset spacers.
My bar/spacer combo is damn high too but I have a super long torso.
I think someone of “average” proportions on a given size bike may struggle if they try to go super high, so like I said it’s probably sometimes true!
Which hydro pack did you mention you were using these days?
#downangledsaddles