The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 23 - Grim Donut 2 is Live!

 Hhmmmm...

 Sometimes a CEO sees the writing on the wall. Better go now before @mikelevy takes that thing to market. ;-)

 @SlodownU: Yeah I mean other than a 5.3° slacker head-tube angle, 4.7° steeper seat-tube angle, and a significantly lower BB... it's totally the same.

 @brianpark: The bike built as an over the top piss-take on the ideas that Mondraker and Geometron have been implementing for over ten years is actually quite good? Maybe a comparison test with those bikes would be quite informative?

 @mikelevy: The time has come for an “Unlimited / Prototype” class in DH and Enduro racing. They could hold the regular DH race on Saturday, then the Unlimited / Prototype race on Sunday. Riders would love it (as would fans, spectators, Pinkbike nuts, and television audiences), innovation would flourish, new companies would be setup in North America, and there would be big upsets, big excitement, big bikes, big head angles, and maybe even big Fro-rider hair. Just imagine a Cannondale Fulcrum 3 vs the Grim DHonut vs the Intense M-Unlimited-Pro(totype). Riders, designers, teams, and entrepreneurs could test new exotic tire concepts, optimized frame and bar flex, 32” front wheels, dual-rotor carbon/ceramic front brakes, etc. Maybe just 3-5 major events throughout the year.

While at it, maybe include 2-3 “vintage” 26” DH bike events (just imagine a Cannondale Fulcrum 1 vs Gwin’s Yeti vs an Intense M1). Likewise, it might be interesting to introduce a “homologation” class for certain EWS or DH series or events (either at the top pro level or maybe at an amateur level). This could ensure that racers are on bikes that manufacturers can sell, that bikes might be affordable for certain racers (say a $2500 or $3500 homologation class), that racers are on the same bike for all of the events, or to create a range of specifications for the bikes to prevent track-specific / race-only bikes.

I also imagine that an affordable “spec” class could increase mountain biking and racing access to a wider range of people — just imagine a “$1K” spec class...bikes available in 5 sizes that can be raced in Enduro, XC, and Dual Slalom “1K” spec events. And likewise, a $1K DH bike spec — likely also 5 standardized sizes with standardized geometry, aluminum frame, durable wheels, standardized tire specs and weights, and components and designs that are proven, durable, easy and cheap to maintain, not too crazy heavy, and also easy to “try out” or rent.

Anyhow, I’m seriously hoping that MTB racing and MTB industry will consider an Unlimited / Prototype class for the top pro level. Maybe along with a homologation class, a vintage class (for fun), and a 1K spec class to make MTB racing more accessible for a wider range of people (of course including students and new riders, worldwide).

And lastly, maybe Pinkbike could sponsor a university “Formula SAE” style bike design / build / race competition. Just imagine what kind of amazing and wild stuff we’d see!

 @SlodownU: Someone missed the point but I don't think it was @brianpark.

 Looked into a Sienna a few years back, but didn't have storage for a spare tire (not even the little spares). Do newer models now come with a spare? That was dealbreaker for me. Sort of the equivalent of a water bottle cage. 100% serious.

 @JDFF: the spare tire goes under the car, same as on the 4runner

 Not sure why we're on this topic, but cheers. My only beef with minivans in this arena is the low clearance. Otherwise, yes, they're pretty sweet.

 @BiNARYBiKE: there are lift kits for the sienna, allowing larger tires and more clearance. Very popular in SLC as family ski-hill mobiles, I'm told. If I still lived in Denver, I'd be very tempted.

 Tempting to agree but Siennas have windows which reduce privacy (limo tints attract attention) and they’re big. Transit Connect or Promaster City vans are more nondescript, easier to park, can be swept clean, are available as panel vans, but are not “Toyota reliable”, FWD only, and can’t tow.

I’d say a Ram Grand Caravan CV (panel van minivan) would be the best compromise and they’re even cheaper.

 BINGO

 Hell yes!

 I like the AWD Tercels or Astro vans. My vote goes to the Mitsubishi Delica - had one for 11 years and it was PERFECT. Slow, but perfect.

 @onlyDH: i think it was the early model Siennas, right aftet they stopped making Previas, that didn't come witj spares. Must of corrected the issue on newer models, thank goodness!

 @onlyDH: Looked into it a bit more, I'm not making it up. Looks like in 2012 they were still coming without spares and "run flat tires", which limits tire choice and a bad solution to a dumb design. Check out the link:

community.cartalk.com/t/no-more-run-flats/85107

I'm definitely going to look into a newer Sienna now, lift it slightly and throw on some BFG AT's. Remove all back seats and build bed/storage. Cut out foam inserts for interior window insulation (while parked/sleeping). (Used to have a sweet Previa like that)

 @mikelevy: As someone who lives in the States, but has lived in B.C., I agree Delicas are pretty sweet. Current problem #6,841 for us down south is that they have to be 20+ years old for us to import them. (They don't sell them new down here.) So the ones that get imported out of Canada are "high maintenance". Love seeing the newer ones up north though!

 @JDFF: I hate that rule. I had an L300, not an L400, and loved it so much. I sold it to a guy in Bellingham, but no idea where it is now. It was over 20 years old at that point.

 @JDFF: No spare would be a non starter for me too.

That said, I'd still rather have a full size van or truck. Or, in my case, hopefully getting insurance on my ambulance today!

 @mikelevy: and now Mini is Damn FAAAAST

 @JDFF: for sure. The newer ones are awesome. I had a 2002 4Runner up until 2014. Now it’s soccer mom life minus the kids and not being a mom.

If I was doing nothing but driving up and down mountains and carrying bikes and a couple of people, a dodge d100 flatbed would be my go to.

 @mikelevy: Do you ever wish you had something more stealthy than the mini these days? Kinda stands out these days. Probably draws lots of attention at Timmy Ho's?

 I was pretty psyched about the new hybrid AWD Sienna, great gas mileage plus all the points you mention. BUT apparently they've eliminated easy removal of middle seats due to fancy new air bags built into the headrests. So that's a bummer! Curious how hard it actually is to get those things out...

 @JDFF: It'll be black soon!

 @Drew-O: oh, good to know!

 @onlyDH: AWD version, no space for a tire. Run flats only.

I agree better than a Taco as long as no real off road as the ground clearance sucks especially with a hitch.

 @fabwizard: Even on new Siennas? As in 2018 or newer? AWD models and space for spare tire, specifically????

 @mikelevy: No Mike, don't!
My Mini is the same colour, don't break up the band!

 The bouncing back and forth between cool Minis and boring Minivans is making me seasick.

 @ICKYBOD: Sounds like a MTBer "vehicle" choice podcast is in order......

 I have a 2007 Honda Oddysey now and I built 2 small frames with storage inside then we just put a panel in between the 2 frames I built and we can sleep inside.

Back on the hitch we installed a North Shore rack of 4 and it’s perfect for our 2 dirtiumpers and 2 enduro bikes .

Thanks

 @JDFF: I've owned two Siennas ('05 and '06) and concur that they are awesome adventure vehicles. Best turning radius of any car I've ever had, and the AWD one was also the best vehicle in the snow I've ever had (including several 4x4 trucks, a bunch of Subarus, etc.) The third row folds totally flat and the second row seats tumble forward, so even without removing anything you can fit a full-sized mattress on the floor for comfy sleeping, or fit 4 people and 4 bikes inside the van. It's true that the there is no spare tire on the AWD models, but you can just throw one in the back, on the roof rack, or on a hitch mount if you want to. Not ideal, but not terrible. And I feel sorry for the commenters who think you need a lifted truck to drive on forest service roads. 6-7" of clearance is plenty if you're careful! Finally, Sienna's are invisible to cops. They don't even look at you.

 @VtVolk: We have a 2011 and ground clearance is a bit less, then adding the hitch makes it much worse. Add some weight and you are down to 5inch clearance. Our hitch regularly bottoms out on large speed bumps if loaded and i forget.

That being said ultra reliable.

We carried a spare tire for years inside and finally gave up. We have run flats so WTF.

Cops here don't ignore as speeding soccer moms regularly get tagged. Don't ask me how many tickets the wife has got )-:

 @fabwizard: Check out Journeys: www.journeysoffroad.com/siennaliftkits.html

 Hopefully Yoann and I will do more together in the future

 @mikelevy: Yoann, Nino and ???

Kiss, marry, murder

Go

 @toad321: To quote WOPR, "Strange game. The only way to win is not to play."

 @mikelevy: I hope so, you two giggling maniacally was a highlight.

 @mikelevy:
Any sort of giggling should be encouraged! Love the video. I want to see Yoann on a pole or geometron. Commencal probably don't though.

 @ICKYBOD: I suddenly feel old.

Again

 Now that you mention it, a 203mm fork on this bike will raise the BB a little. And if 57 degrees of HA is good, 56 might be even better.

 But the comparison would be interesting, not just against the Donut, but also against the enduro bike.

 I'm curious about this as well. Although a pedalable DH bike seems more and more like a good option for EWS too!

 Or achieve it with a 32" wheel up front and a 27.5" rear

 I tiny 10" wheel for when we hit bottom? That way the bike would keep rolling!

 I think it's Levy's mini that needs a skid plate.

 @geephlow: You're not wrong...

 --

 @mikelevy: a crank center mounted inline skate wheel!

 The recumbant donut

 Switch infinity fork

 i think a long ass reach (with a slack headangle) does wonders for flat out stability. i've a 2011 V10 in medium and while flickable i'd like if it were a size bigger, would be more stable and look nicer

 I'd put most of the speed down to the length and lowness of the bike. And the super active suspension = traction for days.

 @mikelevy: not to mention the guy riding it....

 Some brands vary those numbers - seat angles get steeper and rear centers get longer as the bikes get bigger. Norco and others.

 Yes! Next version: no seat tube at all and a dual-crown fork!

 the dream! Enduro is just DH on singlecrowns anyway. Might as well go the distance .

 The Grim Timbit - kids bike (roughly the same geo as most XL enduro bikes from 2021)
The Grim Strudel - eMTB (550mm CSL, 550mm reach)
The Grim Croissant - high pivot DH bike (45° HTA, 90° STA)
The Grim Danish - the fixie (90° HTA, 30mm bars)

...I'm hungry

 @brianpark: The Grim Long Black - 57° HTA, Single speed hardtail.

 @brianpark: The next one should be called The Bleak Bagel.

 @brianpark: you missed the most obvious one. Two wheels —> two holes —> grim pretzel

 @brianpark:
The Grim Croissant needs to be a cx bike. Might require some UCI regulation changes for geo, though.

 It just occurred to me that your name is vapid - oscar, not vapeedo-scar. Whoops.

 @brianpark: don't worry about it. Not my real name.

 @brianpark @mikelevy @mikekazimer
Homework complete.

The bikes:
1) 2017 Breezer Storm shoddily converted to 1x8 trail bike. No dropper. 71deg head angle with SR Suntour XCT fork. Think cheapest bike in LBS.
2) 201X Titus El Viajero Gravity Trail. Dropper. 65deg head angle with SR Suntour Auron fork and Duair RC shock. Put together with best cheap NOS parts I could find.

The technical trail features.
1) Switchbacks: first left then right with about 20 yards between them. Both are about 8 ft diameter.
2) Root ball turn: short climb leading up to a hard left around a tree followed by some rocks and a tree to avoid.

 Prior to being assigned my homework, on my last ride on bike 2, I made none of these features. Sliding off the switchbacks and stalling on the root ball.

First off I checked my suspension. Bike 2 fork was too soft and was diving. Added 10 PSI.

I took bike 1 out first. First stop: climb switchbacks - did not get either. Second stop: descending switchbacks - no problem. Repeat several times - same result. Third stop: root ball - hit with a little speed and was no problem. I thought it was a real possibility I would crash or chicken out on root ball because it was so awkward and chunky. Booked it back to the car because I was paranoid that bike 2 would be stolen.

Bike 2. Hit root ball first after descending trail that i had to walk down on bike 1. Root ball worked but line was not as good. Then enjoyed a ride until looping back to switchbacks. I did a bit better on the climbs and a bit worse on the descending.

 What did I learn. Speed helped on root ball. Setting up early and looking where I wanted to go helped on switchbacks. I had been staring at my front wheel. I knew that wasn't right but was so worried I would drift off trail I couldn't help it.

I'm close on the up hill just out of shape due to some nagging injuries.

The full suspension opens up trails that are too scary and physically punishing on the hardtail.

Yes the steering on the hardtail is snappier and more stable at low/no speed but that does not make up for it being worse in every other conceivable way.

Thanks for the homework. Helped me decide that the old bike is probably not the ideal winter beater and should sell while people are desperate for bikes.

 We actually interviewed Chris Porter for this project, but we decided to save the interview for Part 3. He had a lot to say!

 @brianpark: he always does!

 @brianpark: oooh. That's cool. Thanks for the update.

 Great topic. Hard one for us to cover, sensitive for sure. But would be worth doing right.

 @brianpark: Agreed, and that was the reason for the question. Why is it sensitive? Seems to be the same across all “extreme” sports. So I’ve spent most of today thinking about this, my best guess is that the same people paying the athletes are the ones trying to sell product. As such they would like the public thinking all the money they spent on xyz went into the R&D and production of xyz, not to support joe blow World Cup appearances. Where as Pro Sport teams are just trying to sell ticket and commercials.

Still it would be interesting to track riders earnings, or at least would provide one more article on here for me to read.

 I don't disagree with Yoann's assessment of how it climbs. I just want people to understand what we mean when we're talking about climbing on the Grim Donut. We've alternately praised and shit-talked its climbing, so it's worth being clear which parts are good and which parts aren't.

Traction: great
Pedaling position: surprisingly good
Ability to get over things: literally hit and miss
Pedaling efficiency: shit

 @brianpark: If there is no traction and you just can't get over stuff, isn't that the most inefficient possible situation? Many riders live in places where most of the climbs aren't just fire-roads, so "efficiency" of just plain spinning up a smoothish [fire-road] climb in the saddle is literally the least important thing. Being able to maintain traction and get up and over stuff when out of the saddle is king.

I just find it silly that after Yoann praises it in an actual mountain bike situation (getting up nasty fun shit), you immediately have to bash it for how it performs in what is pretty much transition stage conditions (boring AF seated spinning up a fire-road). Who f*cking cares? Should have let Yoann's appraisal sit for just a few seconds before immediately dismissing it as being offset by a metric which just wouldn't really matter to anyone who chose this bike on purpose.

Just flip the damn lockout lever and pedal away if you really care about being the fastest up the fire-road. Hell, just leave it locked out all the time, since traction is obviously way down on the priority list.

 Second that.

 Sure thing - it's @reclaimdesigns (www.instagram.com/reclaimdesigns).

 @mikekazimer:

 It's 8:55am here and I've eaten two donuts already. Still on the program.

 @mikelevy: one of my friends says that he's willing to take me up on a small wager by climbing one of the most notorious climbs on the Front Range outside of Denver (Belcher Hill, White Ranch). Any chance of getting the bike for a few days?

 $$$$$$$

 @mikelevy: true true

 Skip all that and just get a truck and a trailer. Having a portable cabin with a real shower and toilet that you take with you and make a base camp out of is a game changer.

 @ICKYBOD: skip the hokey trailer...get a Scout Kenai camper on that truck with a swing out vertical rack. Best of both worlds

 @Svinyard: nah, I love the trailer setup much more. I've brought a couple friends and everyone has own bed. Shower I can stand up in. Couch. Drop it at a campground then go hit a whole area without breaking camp every day.

 Thank you papa.

 Because I had to go to summer school for math every single year I was in high school, and I talked before thinking. Sometimes it works out, sometimes the math is wrong. My bad haha

 If it was 2:03 vs 2:09, it was 4.65% faster

 but if you were saying how much slower his own bike was, then yes, 4.87% slower!

 @twonsarelli: Lets all agree it was 4.69% faster. #marketing

 @watchmyradical: Needs more digits to be taken seriously: 4.698375%

 @mikelevy: ahh yes more numbers and more 420. 4.698420% SRAM marketing department approved?

 Grim Reaper - DH Sled.

 @fartymarty: The Reaper is already a Rocky Mountain though.

 Monday