The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 44 - Mountain Bike Suspension Decoded

 yes.

 Read this comment and then watched the fails. Always seems like people never setup the rear suspension correctly, which leads to crashing.

 @schlockinz: I think its more rider error. They don't get bucked because they're suspension isn't tuned properly. They get bucked because they suck.

 Totally agree, I'm not a beginner but sometimes I still struggle and don't want to spend hours and hours of ride time setting up suspension. The fork on my new 4k bike was setup by a shop employee and was so far off it was dangerous, super high pogo rebound, tons of compression damping. A person new to the sport might've ridden it that way for a long time, and just thought mtb sucks with sore hands, or gotten flung over the bars on their first jump. I think if shops want to compete with the direct to consumer brands, going the extra mile will keep customers loyal and smiling.

 First of all, there is an excellent chance that the hack that happens to work at shop part time, who sold you that bike has no more knowledge about suspension than I do about quantum mechanics.

Second, do you want them to be responsible for you knowing how to ride it too?

Google gets 4 million plus hits when you type "mountain bike suspension setup". The info is out there, in as simplified terms as you want.
If someone is dumb enough to shell out big bucks to get high end suspension with a lot of adjustment, but are not inclined to use it properly...that's on them.

 red bike In edmonton does this. Mud sweat and gears in west end edmonton does this. They are great shops!!

 @ReformedRoadie: I disagree, partly. I think the issue is a lot of people who are completely new to biking don't necessarily understand that they need to setup their suspension. I mean if they know nothing about biking, they might just assume it's like a car or similar, it comes setup from the factory. I think if they buy it from a shop the shop should, at the very least, tell them they to go the manufacturers website and follow the instructions. Maybe pointing out the where to add air, some of the dial locations and such would help too.

 Couple schools of thought here.
1. Most new riders, do not have the experience, and are fairly overwhelmed by riding off road upright, changing gears, etc, and most of the time spent on suspension setup is lost time in the excitement of a new bike purchase.

2. Without that knowledge and experience, a base setup is really all that you’re going to be able to accomplish.

3. My belief is that experience is the best teacher, and the quickest, teach a man to fish and all that. futzing with your own stuff helps you learn how these things work, and the effect they have. On top of, riding style changes, different terrain, different bikes, all require new and different changes to your setup to get the most out it.

4. In my experience (obviously antidotal) at all the shops I worked at we did a basic suspension setup to all bikes at time of build. It’s a one size fits all approach obviously, but it helps sell bikes. More advanced setup/tuning was a value added service, that we sold as a package (could be thrown in to make a sale). Again, I’m not sure how valuable this is to new riders, without that experience.

5. I honestly believe most people aren’t really interested, I’d wager that most people are “set and forget”, they could, and most of the time do, have all the settings in the world, and either dont notice, or cant be bothered to worry about it.

Good shops will provide good service, there is a cost associated to it, and not everyone wants to pay for that, direct to market bikes a real good example of that.

 Most bike companies have a suspension set up guide and all the shops in my area to the best of my knowledge will ask you your weight and set the suspension to whatever the guide spits out. I don't think I've seen a shop in a long time that won't do that minimum amount. Those guides are all pretty close these days too from my experience.

 @kcy4130: setting it up for them and directing them to Rockshox,com or RideFox.com are two different things.
I don't see how the shop could really do more than maybe set sag, or pump the shock/fork to recommended pressures for their weight.

 A lot of suspension and bike brands have online setup guides that help, but I think that comes down more to bike shop culture than anything else. Yes, there are plenty of great shops who know the things and can teach people, but it seems to me like a lot of LBS employees aren't prepared to supply that kind of advice, be it due to lack of knowledge (seasonal employees, most not sticking around for years and years, etc) or lack of time.

 @m33pm33p: yeah true, but theres no doubt that having rebound too fast bucks you. Basically if ur rebound is set right and you're getting bucked you can't blame me at the shop.

 When I spend 60k on a new suv the dealership never offers to set my seat the correct distance from the steering wheel and peddles.

 @schlockinz: I agree 100%. Watching the fail videos I always feel like it’s a lot to do with set up. Skill plays a huge factor but if the suspension set up is wrong, the bike won’t take impacts or track and cause crashes.

 @king-joe: dumb comparison. The car leaves the factory set up properly. A bike does not. Nice try.

 As a tech at a high end MTB shop, I agree. We always do this.

 @DAN-ROCKS: if a brick and mortar bike shop isn’t offering some suspension set up personalization and making sure a new rider knows how to clean a drivetrain, what value is being offered above just ordering online?

That’s your value advantage not a hindrance to picking the shop Spotify playlist.

 @king-joe: false equivalency the car manufacturer have the suspension already set up for you. Steering wheel to pedals (peddles?) is akin to setting seat height.

However, the dealership better show you where all the bells and whistles are and where the switches for those bells and whistles are. This is quite literally the only value a dealership could offer over just ordering cars direct from the manufacturer.

 Bike shops should be more responsible. Full stop.

 @49thbiker: We definitely need to do a bike shop podcast. Kaz and I have two decades working in shops between us, so it's something that's close to our hearts.

 @Starsky686: yeah my analogy was trash. I mean I do tell ppl how to clean the drivetrain with every sale but explaining suspension takes a long time and I can't really do that in the time they are in the shop. If they come in and want me to change something I will help them, but after the baseline setup they have to ride it and figure it out any other changes they want.

 @king-joe: Most people don't have a clue how to set that up properly either.

 @mikelevy: You touch on this in comment above. Seems to come down to lack of knowledge or lack of communication or both. I would say the number one factor is the shitty pay.

 @mikelevy: LBS have the potential to win back some of the online/direct shoppers if they were to capitalize on this issue. Provide something direct sales and net can not. Exceptional service. I’m sure a lot of dentists would be happy to buy their Yeti bikes from a LBS if they were shown how to set up sag, rebound and load it onto their Porsche, BMW and/or Tesla. Again, just my .02

 100% Agree. To their credit, I'll send a shout-out to Spokesman Bicycles in Santa Cruz, CA. I just picked up a new Ripmo a week or so ago, they took a few measurements from me and the benchmark suspension set up on my bike was nearly flawless, a bit less air pressure and some rebound tweaks was all I really needed to dial it all in.

 @m33pm33p: they all remind me of people trying seat bounce on dirt bikes when they have no idea what they are doing.

 @gorideyourbikeman: eff yes! I'm a big MSG fan.

 @mikelevy: this is why you buy a bike in the winter. You get the good guys! And you already did a bike shop podcast

 @DAN-ROCKS: I wouldn’t expect a two day course on leverage curves and kinematics. Just proper psi based on the customer weight and a quick mention of rebound or compression. You’re probably doing that, I’ve never had a bike shop that didn’t. I think the tone of your comment just sounded fed up and wasn’t actually representative of your services.

 @arsnic360: That guy's Ibis would have totally done the work if his suspension was set up properly.

 wow. sounds like you have an extra volume of problems with your relationship. Maybe you just need to flip the switch and be firm.

 Just need to ramp up your true feelings.

 its also not useful and like come on its practical just be nice and let others do it
@rockshox plz fix

 @timotheysski: every company needs money

 service interval is the amount of time between each maintenance of the shock.

 service interval, like the guy above me said, the amount of time (interval) between services

 @DAN-ROCKS: How much did they make from this patent? Zero, because no sane people would pay licence for a ruler and no customer will choose their products because they have one. They are simply dicks.

 @lkubica: i agree but then again business is business and i get that they did that

 @lkubica: no. They pay to have a patent. It is like paying to have an advantage over other companies. They don't want other companies stealing their good idea so they put a patent on it. It's just business, its not being a jerk.

 I know what a frigging service interval is, l just don't adhere to them and have never had a shock serviced in 24 years of full sus action despite being on my current RP2 for the last 12 years. Christ, I have just had to explain a joke

 The spin is strong in him!

 Mandela is NOT from Bellingham either!

 I would love to hear Hambini's comments on this podcast.

 Would the real grim shady please stand up?

 I should find a photo from the early 2000s when I have bleached blonde hair like Jonah does in that photo haha

 @mikelevy: Come on Mr. Levy, you know us Pinkers need to see that!

 They're definitely related. www.pinkbike.com/photo/4813746

 @mikekazimer: That's worth banning you

 @mikekazimer: Whoa...who is that guy???

 I was just going to say something similar. 2 hours into my day and it’s been an absolute shit show. Seeing this episode pop up in my notifications helped a bunch and I’m excited to take a listen! Keep doing what you guys are doing

 Should I just live stream from my shop all day? Probably not a good idea tbh

 @mikelevy: no, I can definitely see it. 8 hour livestreams every day of Levy on his Zwift training to beat Kaz in Mike vs Mike.

 Yup - My lyrik developed a creaky CSU 2 weeks into ownership this year. The time frame to get it fixed (not really RS problem due to supply chain) - 6 months. 6 months where if I hadn't just bought a new fork I would be without a bike.

 @skiandmtbdirtbag: Yeah, it's insane. A couple of years back I waited 3 months for a creaky 36 to come back, during peak riding season! It was insane. Ended up buying a new fork and selling the 36 when it came back.

 Hhmm, I wouldn't call that dodging. In my experience, RockShox has a very good track record when it comes to CSU noise. The question for Chris was intended to be more general, as in: Why is it challenging to make CSUs in general

 @mikelevy: but he didn't answer the question...

Levy: why is it hard to make CSUs that don't creak?

Chris (paraphrasing): it's not, we have it locked down.

In my experience (3 RS forks in the last 3 years) this simply isn't the case. Maybe I'm unlucky, but I don't think so.

 @aribr: We touched on it a bit; there's a lot of leverage going on there, and two different joints to deal with. Going to a one-piece crown-steerer could present some new alignment issues, too.

 @mikelevy: Very true.

However, regarding the one-piece CSU, Chris clearly states that their current paradigm results in a "light-weight, affordable, cost-effective product"...basically, fancy words used to say it is too expensive, which is a shame, because I also believe that this would solve a lot of issues.

 @aribr: I'm not sure it's only down to it being too expensive. I mean, X-Fusion used to do one-piece crown and steerers...

 @mikelevy: Man if x-fusion can get those tolerances tight enough...then surely RS can too? I still think it has to do with the margins. Speaking of X-fusion, what happened to the REVEL-X?

 @aribr: I don't think I've ever had a creaky RockShox CSU, to be honest, not that they don't ever but I think RockShox is pretty good on this front. But definitely had creaky CSUs from others. Not sure if one-piece CSUs kept X-Fusion foks from creaking at the crown/stanchions, though. Or if that's more common than creaking at the crown/steerer.

 @mikelevy: Well me being 220 lbs might have something to do with those damn creaks! Good point regarding the interface, most of my creaky forks have creaked at the crown stanchion interface something that no one-piece crown will fix. There is a rumor that all major guys press stanchions in dry (again, saving money), which surely can't be optimal.

 @aribr: Ohlins is the answer to all your problems.

 Have an upvote for your excellent summary. Pet peeve: going on about how "geeky" a discussion is, particularly when there is almost no technical detail beyond the basic user-level stuff.

 @dirtyburger: So many w@nk words and no technical substance. Pure marketering w@nkery.

 Similar to Chris Porters take on setting up the bike to suit the rider rather than the other way around.

 Holding on to my 36 with bolt on (floating?) axle for the foreseeable future

 He did a lot of spinastics in this interview. Great PR guy!

 IIRC RockShox would have stuck with 20mm but had their hand forced by Fox and Shimano pushing 15mm?

 Stank-shun.

 I think Vital did something with them. I would love to see more from the good, but not common OEM supplier suspensions like DVO, Manitou, MRP, CC, etc...

 Inside line podcast had a great one with Darren Murphy from Push

 @BamaBiscuits: Yeah that one was fun.

 @BamaBiscuits: Yes, I listened to that! It was super interesting. Darren from Push says you should NOT worry about full travel. Just set up and ride to desired feel.

 @mybaben: The tip about setting your bike upside for a few minutes before you ride is something I do every time now. Just makes sense when you think about it

 @jmhills: That's a great tip. I actually hang my bikes from the wall on hooks, so the front wheel is up for long periods of time anyway. Because of that I don't worry about it too much at the trail, but if I stored my bikes flat on the ground, I would def flip it upside down at the trail for a few!

 @mybaben: Haha I do the same thing. As a bonus I know I need a lower leg service when oil is leaking down the stanchions!

 technically it should be set up with the fork at a 90 degree angle to the ground, but really it is hard to replicate this. Technically sag should be measured from the wheel too, but it doesn't really matter as long as the way youre setting ur spring is consistent.

 Not jerks at all. The reality is it was novel and really gives the fork an advantage over the competition when setting up. This is exactly why its a great and worthy patent.

 @IMeasureStuff: Yes, but that is from the RS point of view. From the MTB community POV, it would be super helpful if others could employ such a simple and useful tool/feature. So in that way it's somewhat punitive.

 @mybaben: perhaps those markers have some blame for how RS backstepped from high negative air volume because people were concerned about not getting the full advertised travel amount.

Speaking of patents, is Knolly keeping other brands from connecting the seat tube to the down tube? Never really understood that lawsuit against Intense.

 just listened, seems like he was holding back..... built in ShockWiz. When something retrofitty just looks fitty.

 It isn't

 More to come! Anyone you want to hear specifically?

 @mikelevy: Tippie and Rob Warner!!

 @mikelevy: Dave weagle ????????‍♂️

 @mikelevy:
Remy. All the Remy. I want a coupon code that lets me ride steep slabs.

How about industry folks from Rocky, Banshee or Norco to talk geo and if they’re going to give you royalties when they copy the Grim Donut?

Vorsprung for some more suspension talk?

 @mikelevy: jordie cortes

 @mikelevy: Martin Whiteley to talk DH racing and the economics thereof.
Nico Vouilloz to recall his racing career and geek out on bike geo / setup (that might need a few instalments).

 @mikelevy IMBA. Should give 'em a chance to explain themselves. Perhaps get comments from mtn bike associations/chapters, like CORBA, Evergreen MTB Alliance, etc.

 Adding names to the list!

 Just make sure the audio for guests sorted

 @mikelevy: Chris Porter

 @mikelevy: Anne Caroline Chausson, Missy Giove, John Tomac

 @Varaxis: Great idea! I'd be psyched to see more advocacy focused content on the podcast. Just to be crystal clear, Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance is NOT an IMBA chapter. @mikelevy hit is up if you want to have Evergreen on!

 or Chris Porter.

 @fartymarty: there are many Chris Porter interviews online, mainly British