The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 75 - Things MTB Brands Waste Money On

 Biggest waste of money is NOT investing in after sales service and customer experience. A few decades ago a happy customer told 1-2 people and an unhappy one told 12 by word of mouth.... that was pre-internet. Now positive reviews are suspected to have been bought and unhappy customers have a worldwide megaphone at their fingertips.

 I think we all know it’s a kashima coated hydraulic system for a bike rack,

 I know the comments section is supposed to be for complaining, but there is seriously so much quality content on the site these days. Race coverage, the podcasts, Ben's How to Bike series, the upcoming Field Test... thanks for helping us avoid boredom and productivity at work, PB team!

 Promoting through YouTubers that can't actually ride or provide feedback to the brands about the product like pro riders can.

 I don't think this is necessarily a "waste of money" for brands, in fact it may be the economical thing to do, but since you mentioned it: the amount of plastic packaging in/on bikes in boxes that arrive in bike shops to build up is APPALLING. And it all goes straight into the trash. When that article about Trek cleaning up their packaging came out a little while ago that was so encouraging to see.

It may cost more to package bikes with less damage to the environment - but that is a very good expenditure of money for the long term.

 Speaking of manuals, years ago I bought a couple of Yamaha dirtbikes. They each came with a manual that was so in depth that it explained to you how to rebuild the entire engine and suspension in detail.... with photos and schematics. So in my opinion, I think mountain bike manuals should be even more in depth so a competent back yard mechanic could tackle the rebuild job him/herself. People will still support shops because rebuilding your entire bike can be a daunting and lengthy task, but having the option to do it yourself would be appreciated by many people.

 To me the biggest waste of money or largest opportunity cost is the haphazard way bike companies run their demo programs, regardless of if it's their demo vans going out and doing events or the programs (or lack of) they develop to provide dealers with demo bikes. Demo vans seem to be run by bros and it's totally haphazard and ad hoc as to which events and what dealers those rigs turn up to. Pre-pandemic, when shops had demo fleets it seemed to me in most cases the demo bikes were on perm loan to some employee or used within the shop's inner circle.

 Nothing against Christopher Walken.....but the YT bike release edit featuring a non-bike related actor seems annoyingly wasteful? Also- Specialized did that fancy production with a monster chase? Do this next level bike edits provide returns????

 Hey guys, long fan of the Podcast .
I am building up a Meta AM 21 in L with a coil.
I ride a lot of park but would love to do some 2-3 hour xc-ish rides. Should I get an extra down country bike, or would a spare wheelset with super fast rolling tires be enough to make the overall ride enjoyable?
Keep up the amazing work, I really enjoy this podcast a lot!

 I commented on Episode 72, pitching the idea of Mikebike. No mentioned was made of said comment throughout this podcast. Luckily, I trademarked the name after posting the comment and realizing the value. You will be hearing from my lawyer.

 R&D suspension layout and ideal shock mounting then throw it all out the window and move the shock only to facilitate an extra water bottle

 Waste of money showing someone going down singletrack and doing a dickhead rear wheel flick which wrecks the trail. Every company advertises like this. How about a company shows how to go fast without trashing the trail? That would be unique.

 Save money - put a nice cassette, mid range shifter, and bottom end mech on a gravity oriented bike.

 Regarding the Warden sizing ... back in the intro article in 2019 (www.pinkbike.com/news/knolly-launches-new-wardens-and-delirium.html), I was startled at the numbers Knolly put in their geo charts and straight up asked if they had mixed up the sizes. Knolly responded with:

flag KNOLLYBIKES PLUS (Aug 12, 2019 at 21:21)
Those are correct. Incredibly steep effective seat tube angles make a long reach seem less long because you sit more forward on the bike.

 As an unofficial urban camper, is there a way this podcast could be in Town Square Crier format?

 As an illustration of why investing in racers is a waste of money, I am familiar with many of the top names in DH and EWS, but remember almost nothing about what teams they race for. I might remember a few because there was a big story about changing teams (Danny Hart), or if there's a bad news story (Pierron), or if a rider makes a lot of their own edits (Brendog), but beyond that I just can't keep track of it all!

This may illustrate my bad memory more than their bad investment though!

 Tandem bike is definitely relationship particle accelerator…
Tandem during COVID shutdown even more so
Only faster way to sort it out is tandem kayaking… but there’s a lot of false negatives in the boat because the coordination is more difficult

 I raised this question a few times and all I got were downvotes:
Could it be that brands increased prices on regular bikes due to the cost of developing e-bikes?
That's something I really would like to know.

 The SB100 was better than the SB115. Yeti made a new bike...and it got worse

 Hey Pinkers! Re: the listener question about the popularity of mountain biking - I think you were conflating the idea of mountain biking as a recreational sport with sponsorship and visibility of mountain bike racing as a competitive endeavor. As much as it pains me to admit this, I started mountain biking in 1994. While I agree with Kaz with respect to whether mountain biking has ever been “cool,” I think it’s objectively true that sheer participation in a recreational sense has never been more robust as it is now.

 In regards to mid-tier racers being sponsored :
I race radio controlled nitro buggies, one of mybblocal racers is the equivalent of a mid-tiered rider - top 10 in Oz, top 40 in the world, not going to appear in any ad campaigns anytime soon.... HOWEVER
What he does do at a local level for other racers with advice probably covers what he gfets in sponsorship. He's happy to tell anyone who asks what his suspension settings are, what tires & compounds he's running (or going to run) - when he changed tire sponsors a number of our local racers changed with him (and we're all paying for our gear) so we can run his recommendation. He's also got spare parts for his chassis manufacturer, if someone breaks something he'll happily give you a spare & help you fit it if you need the help. His brand ambassadorship is a much bigger part of the value he brings to the brands sponsoring him than his results.

 OMG - I hate to say it ;-) but @mikelevy you are totally right regarding tandems. My wife is not a biker and we rented a tandem a few years back no a trip to Montreal (back in the good old days when we could cross the border up to Canadialand) - it was so weird for me riding a bike and feeling the impact of someone else's body movements on the steering / feel etc. What annoyed her more though, was that I could clearly tell when she wasn't pedaling and called her out on it. I totally agree with your take - if your marriage can survive riding a tandem, it'll survive anything. We are now just past 20 years happily married and she still has zero interest in bikes. :-) And I have no interest in getting us a tandem.

 Do brands have some sort of insurance for warranties(wether through a private company or through their manufacturer overseas), or do they just eat the cost? I’ve broken a frame a year for the past 4 years(same frame, same brand, same spot). I ride a dentist bike but ride 3-4x more then the average dentist. I plan on riding the same frame until there’s more than just a small incremental improvement as I like the way it rides (also dentist bikes are expensive for non dentists.) Customer service from the brand has always been excellent and fortunately I have a second bike(and good relationship with the LBS if I want to borrow something) so it’s not a big deal... just wondering if they feel any financial pain beyond shipping and salaries for in house employees dealing with the claim or just the threat of bad PR.

 This podcast left me confused, no agreement on any of points.
What you guys think about brands that invest on proprietary suspension components, like Cannondale (pull shock, lefty) scott (nude shock and pull shock before that), specialized (brain, autosag), etc?
With so many refined options out there , isn't that a waist of resources?

 Seems like champions who ride for trek are always getting caught for substance abuse . At least she only tried to press charges against the doping committee and not everyone else around her including the pinkers media team . Walsh= levy

 Contact Mavic for customer support. I dented a both rims of a Deemax Pro wheelset and couldn't get them repaired due to poor customer support. I had approx 40 emails and multiple phone conversations with the LBS and the distributor trying to get replacement parts to rebuild them, but without success.

 Nobody wastes more money than me

 Question: What are some drawbacks to large sweep angles on handlebars? I love the Jones bars on my "gravel" bike (45 degree sweep!) and they are super comfy. Why don't we see mountain bike bars with more sweep?

 The biggest waste of money that affects consumer pricing is Race Teams. People claim it is what leads to product development, maybe marginally. If that were the case there would be no need for product reviews. We would be able to conclude a bike is great based on wins. Again, some small truth to that but its mainly the riders skill. Most experienced riders know if a bike is good or not, we don't need a paid racer to tell us. Most people look to other non racers to review bikes, like Mike and Mike. I don't care about racing and would rather have cheaper bikes than support a factory team, primarily because trailbikes aren't what's used to win races and that's what I ride.

 When are we going to roast muc-off for their hypocritical pattern of behavior?

a) previous over sexualized/sexist marketing
b) disingenuous virtue signaling regarding pierron
c) new kit with lightning bolt logos reminiscent of nazi ss

Flame on!

 So the new bike design wasn’t needed….
Interesting premise
I remember Kaz saying he likes the playfulness of the (pull shock) 2nd Jekyll and the 3rd gen was a little blah - faster but not funner
As a big fan of the 2nd gen Jekyll what I heard was ‘the second gen was better than the 3rd unless you were on the ews circuit.’
So what bike redesigns do you guys think took the bike in the wrong direction? As in, they could have evolved the current design more instead in the spirit of cuz as opposed to starting from scratch…
Cannondale didn’t have another bike for long travel trail riders other than the enduro Jekyll so does there need to be a splinter at the 160mm platform?
Discuss the gaps in product lines or the redundancy?
I think of the slayer being the so called enduro sled whole all the pro ews racers were on the altitude anyway…

 the reason companies launch the lighter bike, only to fatten it up when they break, is easy....

in year two of a model, no one is going to notice the weight gain. It simply isn't a thing that anyone would think to check, especially if it's hidden behind: a new flip chip, revised kinematics, updated color scheme, it's now coil compatable(BRO I JUST NEED A COIL!!!) etc.

 So the manufacturers aren't forcing you to buy the $12,000 bike?
*Insert latest release model here*
Top spec: $12,000; stock available = 500 (all sizes & colours)
Mid spec: $9,000; stock available = 10 (all size S in the worst colourway)
Low spec: $6,000; stock available = 0

 Can't agree on investment in racing, especially developing the younguns.

Agree with kaz on making minor tweaks more often instead of 'step' changes where possible. What could make it cool for companies is the ability to sell the 'new' individual component to existing riders for a discount when they've bought a new frame, and some RRP for other consumers (as a guy that hasn't bought a new bike in over 15 years, I would fit into the latter camp). Would create a lot of brand loyalty and I am sure that bike companies can pretty comfortably undercut specialised companies for links etc., and would make a nice 2nd hand market for front triangles. They could even sell different versions of some parts simultaneously so riders can tweak their rides around the brand's 'platform'. Would also allow same size shocks to be used for longer periods, allowing a rider to say 'OK, I'll invest in this as I know I have a long term support from the frame manufacturer'... flipside is that it might place some constraints for the radical redesign that'll change the world.

For the weight frame argument, think that while there is an argument for starting conservative then trying to reduce weight, but it would be hard to justify a new release being heavier than the last! So maybe the lesson is for companies to not go too aggressive with any developments, but admit it is very hard in a fickle industry.

Packaging/manuals - resealable bags to promote reuse? is reflector 'tape' on rims legal?

My pet peeve is that just like the auto industry, bikes under the same 'name' get bigger and then there are too many 'big' (in this case, long travel) bikes within a company's range, then they have to develop something else to replace the void left in the 'smaller' lower travel space. I think this aligns with Sarah's comment... could we make 20-30mm 'steps' for travel, for example? However with part options - if you only went for one brand to get better prices, you might push customers away altogether as loyalty to components can run much deeper than frames, so can't see that as a waste.

Brand name... likebikeslikeMikes.

 Spokes absolutely make a difference, they are a spring in the bike's suspension just as much as rims, tire casing, and handlebars are. Maybe not as much as the actual moving suspension or tire pressure, but spoke stiffness effects how the wheel tracks and feels over terrain and through corners.

 I heard of a dealer launch that sounds like an urban myth, but was it? The story goes that at a Cannondale new bike launch, maybe 15 years ago, the press were kidnapped and driven in the back of a truck into the desert to see the new bike. Real or spiel? Can you find out?

 @brianpark, I cannot see how your hypothetical suggestion of reducing frame/component weight *after* the initial design would work.

Ultimately, you cannot know where to remove material in a design without in-situ failures born from a massive amount of test hours. Simulation can only get you so far as the forces/loads must always be idealised or guessed.
If the manufacturer spent all that time generating those failures using their handful of test riders, it'd be out of date before release.
For the record, I don't think such highly optimised parts are needed for 90% of MTB, save for racing applications.

 What’s an appropriate time from when a race ends to when some mention of the winner is in the title of the article? I’m so tired of whiners about spoilers. It’s actually quite easy to NOT visit news sites before watching a race.

 There is this saying in backpacking/through-hiking.
When you want to get something you have to look at weight, durability, and price. And then you pick two of those. You can’t get all 3 so you pick what’s most important to you. I think the same is true with mountain biking.

 Hello Pink Out Podcasters I remember a few shows ago Mike and Brian both said they low their seat posts 1 inch to assault uphill tech climbs. I had never heard of this before and tried it. It works great! I'm now wondering if the crew has any other dropper post settings they use besides all the way up and slammed down. Thanks!! I love this podcast more than any other please keep it going. BTW I think Mike's Bikes should be called Mike's Bikes Squared, for the extra engineering appeal

 I'm sure I'm gonna get downvoted but Jesus Christ most of that was drivel.


Just to pull out one point.... brands spending money on things like dealer events and parties. Consider this. A brand drops some cash on booze and airfare. They get people stoked. People remember that. Guess what... that creates brand loyalty and brand loyalty creates sales. It also creates security. Consider right now... the past years many brands have had a hard time supplying consumers. But because of the effort they put into creating brand loyalty many of their customers are WAITING instead of buying something else. Shining example is that Shimano is showing amazing sales numbers despite having huge issues with supply. And this is literally just one minor example. If brands don't have the money to do these parties they won't. If it's not moving the needle they won't do it.

Warranties.... dahell are you talking about. Warranty claims again... create brand loyalty. If you aren't fixing people stuff you lose their business... usually forever. Warranty claims are still gonna happen no matter how fat you make your frame. Beyond that we're talking about a relatively small chunk of money. Even for a frame. usually it's one of the triangles. So it's a couple hundred bucks in their cost to do a warranty claim. Couple hundred of those is well worth the benefit seen in having a frame that you can advertise as lighter. How often is your number one complaint... and often only complaint on say... a transition frame... is weight. I'd bet their warranty numbers are similar to say a Trek frame that's substantially lighter.

Packaging... all that crap is legal requirements. Period. You leave off reflectors and some ding dong gets smoked by a car they're gonna sue you for MILLIONS of dollars because you put them at risk. You put them on there and they take them off... it's on them.

Racing is a massive part of brand power. Period.

Freeride content was one that you guys mostly made solid points. Well... one of you did.

Wasted money on marketing.... Don't ever go into marketing. Proper launch is gonna cost a lot more than $100k. These big videos... try 2-300k. How's that a waste? You're talking about it. Everyone talked about it. Those videos get watched thousands sometimes millions of times. They create conversation. Clicks. Sales. What's the difference between say a company like YT or Specialized selling a bunch of frames and say Moustache selling substantially less? Is it a crappier bike? Nah. Marketing sold those bikes. So how's that a waste? Big companies spend big dollars because they have big impact.

These types of conversations happen all the time in companies all over the world. That's why marketing budgets are usually the first thing to get cut when companies are trimming the fat for the board of directors vacation homes. But guess what... 2 years later when everything is down they start going... hey why aren't people buying our stuff.... why aren't people talking about us... etc etc. Guess what.... because no marketing. So guess what happens.... they bring back the marketing budgets and usually increase them. But in that time all those awesome people that created the hype are now creating the hype for their conversation and now you're 4-5 years behind them.

Want to talk about waste... electric car batteries. That's a waste. Forest fires because PGE won't burry their lines because of hippies. Waste. This post... waste.


Seriously. This one kinda had me going... wtf the entire time.

 Carbon Fiber

 Biggest waste of time: incremental changes/marginal gains that don’t lower consumer prices.

 I LOVE my spank 359 wheels!
Stiff and strong as f*ck (my oem wheels lasted 3 months, going on 1 year with the spanks) but super ompliant vertically.
Only cost 650$ CAD to have them built, too.

 Time for another page to list all of the previous podcasts. That list is becoming quite the scroll.

 maybe the amount of time, money, and effort spent copying the dhf and Five Tens?

 I'd like to see a poll on this with maybe 10 things you'd like a bike company to spend money on and ten things you don't want them to.

 Companies should spend less on marketing and more on customer service and warranty claims.

 IIRC Levy liked the OG Ibis Ripley more than LS version (v1.5?). But probably now likes a bike more longer and slackerer than the LS. (TBH I’d probably mirror this)

 My 2018 specialized enduro weighs 30.6 (33.8 with full SWAT) with dual casing tires and beefy rims and the front triangle is the only carbon part.

 Mikemightbike

 M&M, as good as chocolate

 MikeOut....OutsideMikes...keep the new corporate overlords happy.

 Mike Bike behind a paywall is the only way to go....

 Podcast question: how long do your hands hurt after installing tubeless tires with inserts?

 I THINK ANY MONEY POURED ON PINKBIKE ADVERTAINMENTORIALS IS WELL SPENT

 Was that username Gobofo or Jobofo? First one means "go big or eff off"

 Can we talk about how much money they pump into Pinkbike ads?

 anything proprietary made by bike companies are a total waste

 Most of the bike/product release promotional videos make me cringe.

 Someone needs to sanitize the Maribor DH trail ...

 pinkbike name mikebike pt 10 armada pt 100

 Lax bought a SUP? EFoil review dropping next week. #commentbronze

 Fuck I always misspell whether. Google what wether means everyone.

 drop the mike, mike drop

 "We don't know what we're doing"

 Yes

 Mikes Talkin' Bikes

 Drop the Mike Mike Drop