The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 79 - What's The Future of eMTBs?

 Also, Pinkbike could you please use some of the Outside.com money to hire a computer person to add an edit/delete function for our comments? A lot of us post on here while slacking off during work or while drinking and sometimes both things concurrently, so it’s hard to proofread. Plus my fingers are really fat from all the weight I’ve put on riding my ebike and it makes typing hard. Thanks in advance.

 Truth, that CEO pod was brutal af. Talk about earning your turns, jeesh. In next week's episode maybe we'll be treated to an hour long discussion on 17th century British literature. Keep swingin for the fences fellas!!

 @TheR I think I might be a CEO (I'm the DigitBikes.com guy), and I've asked to participate in the OutCast. Would that be acceptable or potentially interesting? I'm not sure they do guests so it might be impossible or unprecedented.

I can talk about standards all day long next week! I was peripherally in the industry conversation for 15mm axles, boost, tapered headsets, sometimes the big S's ask frame makers for guidance, sometimes not; and my rear shock is of course not-standard (not to be confused with new-standard). I'm British @Moonie2123, but unfortunatly unfamiliar with 17th century literature.

 @DirtBagTim: I think it’s a great idea to have industry folks like yourself answer questions or be interviewed and give some nuts and bolts feedback and perspective on the Podcast - bring it on

 @Moonie2123: sounds like Levy didn't keep it stupid enough for you.

 @Moonie2123: The cool thing is that not every pod needs to be about derailleurs or racing or 29ers or anything, so sometimes there's going to be something you're not into Next weeks will be one you are into, though.

 @mikelevy: Wait, who said I didn't like 17th century British literature?? I'm guessing that subject was not your fave either, but you toughed it out so cheers! Looking forward to next week's derailleur deep dive...

 @PHX77: masterpiece of a comment.

 @mikelevy: e-bikes, CEOs, but still no UFOs….

 @mikelevy: disappointing. I am not complaining about Ebikes or the CEO. It was the fact that this episode was not delayed to have the Nino is champ 3 hr podcast. This podcast would include a discussion of his bike set up, racing record and of course an interview with him. Keep up the good work.

 @dldewar: haha yeah. Glad to see Nino had a good day.

 I thought his reply about ebikes was one of the best I heard and something I had not thought about. Spot On.

 Agree 100%. Need to share RC's perspective, specifically in regards to access. My take is that ebikes may help established sanctioned riding areas, where facilities, funds and organization is present. However, for unsanctioned "on the fringe" trails, Ebikes will have a negative impact. As a trailbuilder in a non-sanctioned area, I have seen non-positive impacts. Everything from parking issues to non-capable riders getting lost. No hate against ebikers, but by removing an "earn your turns" filter, there are some concerns popping up.

 RC's take on e-bikes does make so much sense.

 @mikelevy: Got a link for those of us that missed his words of wisdom?

 @sngltrkmnd: It was on a previous episode of the podcast - I suspect it is Episode 71, but might be in Episode 67. Links to both are above.

 @sngltrkmnd: It's in this interview with RC from awhile back: www.pinkbike.com/news/the-story-of-mountain-bikings-most-interesting-man-richard-cunningham-a-pinkbike-podcast-special-part-2.html

 RC's perspective on ebikes was pretty sound. I never looked at it that way really. Well said and makes you think. I own both by the way. Conflicted.

 Agreed - not quoting but RC stated that the initial agreements w/ USFS (and/or BLM) were all for non-motorized bikes and that clubs would assist with hike / equestrian groups, even making & cleaning up trails those groups use without bikes even having access. The idea has now slipped into motorized and that's not what the intial access agreements intended or included, but now the groups that lobbied for the access are lobbying for ebikes.

RC is a wise person and I think I pretty much agree with him. Even as a rabid rider, I FULLY agree that no bikes, ebike or regular, should be in designated or study wilderness areas as well and I fully strafe & harsh on people I see trying to sneak rides in them. There are 1000's of miles of trail to ride that are not in these areas - there must be wild areas where we don't get to shred & nature just gets to naych.

 @mikelevy: In America where this land access was negotiated on the premise of non-motorized transport it does.

In a lot of the rest of the world that's usually not an issue and doesn't hold true. Not that I think RC would argue or does.

 @JDFF: just met 2 nice gentlemen riding fully loaded Ebikes on 1 of the NShore mountains (Seymour) looking for green trails to go down. They were absolutely terrified with blues they found. Also mentioned it was so easy to get up )

 @mikelevy: Great episode, had not listened to that.

E-bikes are discussed at 1:35

 @dhridernz: Land access is an issue, of course, but it's also different for many places. We're going to eventually do an entire podcast about land access etc, but this one would have been too long if we had included it. I also 100% agree with RC.

 @won-sean-animal-chin: How do I promote e-bikes? I say I'm not a fan every chance I get, including on podcasts and in videos. But I also know that won't make them go away... and I don't want them to go away. Let the people have fun in the forest. That's 100% a chat I'd have on the podcast or with you in person.

I'm not an e-biker, but it'd be foolish to not discuss them on one of the largest cycling website around. It'd be, you know, almost like not doing my job They're happening, whether you like it or not, and regardless of if I chose to use this perch to say negative things about them, which I don't like to do. I decided that I'm a positive person now

 @won-sean-animal-chin: Hhmm, I might argue that my public position and openly cynical attitude about e-bikes make me an ally to those who don't want them on the trail? That 100% isn't my intention, though.

And yeah, I would still do my job, because I love bikes, my job, and don't care who or how many people ride mountain bikes or e-bikes. Just like I don't care that people ride dirt bikes or drive their truck to the trailhead or fart in my general direction. The sport's growth isn't something I care much about, either, if I'm honest, be it e-bikers or mountain bikers. It's all good.

I know that e-bikes are scary and all, but everything will be okay.

 @mikelevy: fair enough. It was an entertaining podcast. Some funny characters and like i said bang on with a fair bit of it. The actual emtb experience missed a few points though. Where emtbs are faster or slower on the dh, Kaz theorizing the motor in trail mode would shoot him off a cliff, brian trying to explain the rocky crank/bb being seperated from the motor and how its beneficial aside from having a shorter chainstay, uses for the full power emtb and why they might be a much better option etc etc. Im only surprised on the missed points because its a stark contrast from the generally well informed mtb expertise on the site. It just seems like the emtb journalism needs to be brought to your mtb standard. Im sure you could find an industry player or youtuber thatd fit that slot. If toast wasnt so biased he'd be a decent choice

 @won-sean-animal-chin: I can't win - I'm bad for promoting e-bikes... but I also don't know enough about them? My hosting role in the podcast means that I ask a lot of the questions, and I have no problem doing that. Experts? That's Seb and Kaz. The last thing I'd look for is a Youtube'r - we have enough of those around here haha

 @mikelevy: @won-sean-animal-chin is “guilty by association” and tacitly supporting ebikes by continuing to visit PB, so I hope you’re not losing any sleep.

 @mikelevy: Thanks for the link, Mike. After listening to that episode a couple of days ago, I have to say first of all thanks to RC and the countless others like him who put in the sweat equity in the 80s onward to ensure we’d all have the access that we do. Much respect to them - I began riding in about ‘88 but never really had an appreciation for the thankless work that so many have done until many, many years later.
That said, I have several questions and perhaps these are part of the upcoming land access show. First of all, does RC’s argument assume that the agreements that were established decades ago aren’t up for renegotiation? I respect his integrity and how he wants to keep to the letter of those laws, but this isn’t the same issue as dropping pipelines across aboriginal lands in violation of 19th C treaties, as I see it. He cited his former life as a dirt bike rider and spoke to the damage that motos did (and continue to do) to lands across our country. I don’t contest that - I have participated in motorsports as well, and am aware of the impact that can be inflicted - but I do take issue with the false equivalence argument, if that’s what he’s making: eMTBs by and large do not have throttles and don’t generate the kind of torque that roosts trails. They simply don’t work like that. And if you have ridden a dirt bike you know the fun comes from goosing the bike in 2nd up a steep track - going downhill isn’t nearly as fun or commonplace. So I’d suggest that the physical impact of a typical dirt bike is categorically different. Or at least it’s different from the two ebikes I’ve ridden.
Another question i have is: does RC (and do others) tacitly assume that eMTB owners aren’t members of their trail clubs, and are not going to speak out in support for more access? I wonder if RC (and others) think that they only ones that give a rip are those that put in this groundwork and perhaps a small group of others, who similarly are anti-eMTB. Because I have to think that’s probably not the case. I’d bet that many ebike riders already had a mountain bike, and some solid proportion of them are dues-paying members of an IMBA (in the US) affiliate. Or maybe RC fears his purist voice will be drowned out - i don’t know.
I also have to wonder - seriously, earnestly - how many riders have experienced loss of access to trails in the last 3-5 years expressly because of ebikes. I honestly have no idea and I think it’s worth exploring and knowing. I have not noticed any loss of access where I live - it seems to be loosening up, if anything. Or maybe it’s just being tolerated. Perhaps this could be a poll question for the site.
Lastly (because I know I rattling on and have probably already been downvoted even though I don’t own an ebike and thus have no dog in this fight) I honestly wonder what will really happen to the places that open up access (in areas that are currently open to MTBs - I am not talking about wilderness areas and national parks) - it seems our collective irrational fear is that our trails will get overrun with legions of Joeys who are going to destroy our berms, knock the lips off our jumps, and dilute our culture. However as far as I can tell, the entry price to this sport - especially battery-assisted - remains VERY high relative to many other recreational activities. Are we REALLY going to get inundated with future Friday Fails candidates, or is this just what we most fear?
Okay, ONE MORE: what would RC (for instance) prefer to see: riders continuing to shuttle/travel to trailheads in gas-burning vehicles, or a world where more and more riders can enjoy a rad day out without burning any dino juice?
Flame away if you must but again I don’t have an ebike, I’m just as passionate as you about this awesome sport. My life revolves it just as yours does, and I don’t want that to be diminished any more than you do.

 @sngltrkmnd: cool story bro
Is their a coles note version?

 @sngltrkmnd: Per your question "I also have to wonder - seriously, earnestly - how many riders have experienced loss of access to trails in the last 3-5 years expressly because of ebikes. I honestly have no idea and I think it’s worth exploring and knowing. I have not noticed any loss of access where I live - it seems to be loosening up, if anything. Or maybe it’s just being tolerated." My concern is that, predicting future ramifications based on past technology is apples to oranges. It is nice to say we haven't lost trail access due to ebikes when the past decade has featured bikes that are still not quite up to performance snuff and/or within price points to enable widespread adoption. We have to consider where ebike technology is headed. In this case, history is useful as a measure of how much technology has improved and prices declined. But I think you have to cast that progression forward. My concern is that, if the past trends continue, we end up with radically higher performance ebikes increasingly capable of being concealed in smaller, discrete packaging that renders rules to limit output unenforceable. At that point, we have to consider: what impact does that have on trail access in mixed use (bikes, hikers, runners, equestrians) systems. I have a hard time seeing how this doesn't lead to more conflict. But if people can't specifically identify an ebike as the culprit, they're just going to blanket-blame bikes in general. At that point, it is hard to see how bikes retain access to mixed use systems.

 @rsmarg: i think its worth considering that , with a modest amount of experience, riders are more than capable of not running into other trail users. We have a boom of new riders right now, whether mtb or emtb, so there will be growing pains until they either drop out and go back to work or learn trail management 101. Case in point, i was doing an out and back 2 way alpine ride on the emtb yesterday. I stayed in trail mode because i needed a full battery. It wasnt that long ago i wouldve gone the same speed on my enduro bike but i wouldve been pushing harder with my head down more. Yesterday it was easier to stop and let dh riders pass without anyone being rattled and just say hi. Thats been the case all along. I could have 2 batteries and gone faster but i still think id choose my spots to go faster, it wouldnt be that much faster and id still be able to anticipate dh traffic better, despite uphill traffic having the right of way. We have motox trails that are similar to our mtb trails albeit a bit too steep for emtb at times and generally they have longer sight lines but not always. I dont hear of any collisions. People tend to avoid running into things. With newbs there will be growing pains as they learn and i can see even more conflicts on tiny multi use paved 2 way commuting paths. The disparity of speed between walkers, skateboarders and ebikes constrained to a narrow path is hard to avoid without appropriate infastructure. On mtb trails the conduct is well established and will sort itself out. The speed, class level law will be in place for the few idiots that will need it enforced. If theyre not bothering anyone just go about your day. I passed the same amount of people yesterday as i would if i was on my enduro bike. If i was a serial offending overpowered ebike endangering people it wouldnt last long and word would get out. Your power and speed is quite limited on trails because the trail dictates the speed quite a bit. More power will overcome that a bit but for how long? More power drains the battery super quick

 @rsmarg: Good thoughts! Thanks for chiming in. Indeed there is no way of knowing which direction ebikes will take. I would *hope* they don’t get significantly more powerful or faster than they are now…. I am assuming (take this with a mountain of salt - i have very little experience with ebikes) that motor outputs are designed to mesh well/complement human power, and not behave like a high-strung two-stroke (dirt bike) with the throttle pinned. I rode a bit recently on a Canyon Spectral:ON, and when in BOOST mode, it can be a bit awkward when climbing around tight turns - the bike kinda wants to get away from you. What an odd sensation to brake and up shift while climbing!

 @won-sean-animal-chin: For as much as I'd really like to get on board with what you're saying, the reality on the ground (at least where I live on Colorado's Front Range (Rage)) says otherwise. Each boom in mountain biking - including the current one that started roughly 6 or 7 years ago - is accompanied by increases in trail conflicts. Even without ebikes, conflicts were escalating because bikes were getting better and more popular. I don't believe this was/is solely a product of noobs who can't handle their bikes. I think its every bit as much skilled riders looking to blow doors on trails. I know within my crew I have several riding buddies whose behavior is dodgy and unquestionably risky to other trail users. Because of conflicts, the trails here are becoming increasingly segregated and directional. The bike community is celebrating the designation of certain trails as bike-only without recognizing those are quid-pro-quos in exchange for another trail becoming hiker-only. And trails are becoming directionalized. Again, celebrated as a win when really we just lost 50% access because we can't climb that trail anymore. These are outcomes of increased conflict. Motorizing the machines involved in conflicts is quite simply pouring gasoline on the fire. Then you throw in the fact that eMTBs do invite novice riders into the fold and give them the power to get in over their heads. Then you throw in the increased inability to enforce Class designations on ebikes or even to distinguish an ebike from regular bike. It all adds up to a recipe for land managers to say, screw it, no bikes.

 @rsmarg: youre cherry picking data and making projections based on your cherry picking.
If you look at the full history of mtb, the first big boom was suspension. Before that the sports growth was small. With suspension bmxers all of a sudden thought it wasnt just stoned hippies lost in the woods so they got in en masse. It also allowed new riders to better cope with the learning curve. As a result we got more trails, freeride trails, steep trails, jumps, drops and a bigger seat at the trail advocacy table.
Then we got bike parks and shuttling and bikes got better again to cope with that and again, more trails, more big money businesses involved, families and again a bigger seat at the table.
Then in the 2000's super capable enduro bikes and downcountry bikes. Again more trails of every sort. Floe , local tech, slabs riding in a lot of trails, alpine epics with our new capable bikes. Again more sets at the table. Trail orgs have banded together and set the tone to a large degree. Trails are better and more diverse.
The theme is more seats at the table and more trails after more congestion.
Covid has been the biggest growth currently and with it congestion. With population growth stsgnating we're at capacity. We'll get more trails. Emtb will keep numbers and support the lbs because its better with local service. Trails will get exyended and connected with emtbs building from the outer limits of current trails. History supports this at every junction this far.
Looking at the big picture there has been more trails added then closed since the latest boom and emtb's. Im sure your now one way trails and added congestion will mean more trail in the future. There is no reason to doubt that in the complete mtb history.
Why should you have priority over anyone else on the trail if the interaction is just passing on the trail and saying hi as you would if both riders were on mtb or emtb. We have heavily congested trails at certaIn times. There has been no problems apart from the rare anti eeber with a snarky comment based totally on his/her bias/ego and not on the actual trail interaction.
We're now starting to see massive backcountry trail infastructure happen with some big help from emtb's. Local communities promoting it

 @won-sean-animal-chin: You raise a good point: over the years we have more trail. This is true and something that gives me solace. I don't think I"m cherry-picking data, though, because - at least here, can't speak for where you are - conflict has escalated due to increased usage (among all user types) and faster speeds among MTBs. We have lost complete access to trails, had access partially revoked on other trails (via moves to bike- and hiker-only days), and had access modified via directional only. After reading what you wrote, though, I can see the net effect is new trails outnumber what we've lost. But if I think about what those new trails are, they are pretty much bike park or bike-only or directional trails within a shared-use area. I know many celebrate that by not having to worry about sharing the trail, but I personally lament that is the direction the sport is going. To me it is an overly curated experience and I don't love that it funnels/concentrates riders into one area/network. We're not replacing the trails we're losing with similar type trails. We're losing slack- and back-country trails and replacing them with bike parks/bike-park type trails. Motorizing bikes will only accelerate that transition. But your point is well taken. Previously I've thought my position was about preserving access for mountain bikes. But you may have convinced me that is not my issue with eMTBs; that it is about my concern that they will hasten the sport's migration to manicured, controlled environments. I'll acknowledge that would be a personal bias and something I will just have to live with. It bums me out, but at least it doesn't mean my kids won't get to ride.

 @rsmarg: Valuable viewpoint - thanks for sharing. Where I live, it seems there is a palpable resistance to the bike-park-y "flow" trails (even though the local trail club, IMO, does a good job of preserving the balance in our major riding areas), so unsanctioned stuff gets built elsewhere to feed that appetite. That of course leads to its own problems as those trails can be found on private property.
I would say overall, we're in a generally *better* place than we were ten years ago with more riders, more funding, bigger clubs, stronger advocacy (AND better bikes!), but yeah, nothing is set in stone and ebikes could be a net negative for certain areas. Let's take this as an opportunity to renew our commitment to get/stay involved and informed.

 I'm very interested to see how the 2019(ish) and newer ebikes hold up and how manufacturers handle warranties (if at all) a few years down the road. There could be some very expensive non-functional ebikes laying around. With an analog bike there is always a way for an old bike to trickle down to another rider. Will that work with an non-warranty out dated ebike???

 Yeah... probably not going to happen. I don't think people buy e-bikes and then buy a normal mountain bike, but they probably do buy another e-bike down the road.

 @nozes
Finally, someone with the right answer.

 This is a good point.

 yes
motors: more torque
batteries: more capacity but hidden in the frame
parts: getting stronger

The whole E-MTB World is moving towards a silent mini motocross future and noone can deny it. Just a little derestriction and it's far from anything bicycle related.

 @Narro2: I'm pretty sure everyone here knows how they work. I jumped on one once to understand the feel; they offer a rediculous amount of "assistance", one could argue that turning the throttle of a moto burns more calories. That said, if I'm still rollin when I'm 60... maaaaaybe

 I have both, they’re not the same, and IMO, there’s room for both.

 @Moonie2123: "one could argue that turning the throttle of a moto burns more calories" if I would have been drinking coffee, i would have spat it out through my nouse while reading this.

 Yup, exactly. Thankfully it's still like this in many places.

 A few things to consider. On a recent ride I ran into two gentlemen riding their E's. One had a heart attack on the very same trail he just climbed, and the other will undergo an ankle replacement soon due to firefighting and the injuries that often accompany this occupation. I didn't find them to be an issue, and the "suffering" as so many want to believe is a part of biking is just plain wrong. For the majority of rides I find the only issue with E's is the climb, and not the decent. Are we trying to create an exclusive or inclusive type of mountain biking community? I could really care less if I get passed by 20 Ebikes along the way. In fact, I really don't care to run into anyone along the way, but if I do, it's just part of riding, no matter where I am. Maybe we should first start to rail against the morons who seem to feel playing music on speaker mode while dropping their power bar wrappers on the trail to be a bigger problem. Yes, to my surprise these "suffering" type of riders present a darker side of riding then seeing a formerly injured, older, but accomplished rider from yesteryear, and guys who can enjoy their favorite trails post heart attack or injury. The world has bigger issues than wondering who is or is not suffering!

 I grapple with this ‘access’ issue as well. I used to ride with a guy who’d sometimes rhetorically ask this question at the top of a multi-hour climb: “you know what I like about this view? Unfit people don’t get it.”

To zoom way out to western culture in general, I think many of us - myself included - feel discouraged or angry or betrayed that money can so often lead to privilege or access or thrills or whatever that were once only reserved for those that put in what we consider to be the sweat equity. And there’s evidence of this all over, right? Any Joe Bob (bro bob?) can saunter down to the Ford dealer, throw down a hundred K, and get a desert ready Raptor and tear around off road like only Ivan Stewart could have years ago. Or the Starbucks mobile order app - no waiting! Just give your money and fetch your orange mocha Frappuccino at your convenience! Waiting is for poors! So to think about someone zipping to the top of a long-ass climb simply because s/he has the funds rather than the skill or talent, yeah, that gets stuck in our collective dirtbag craw, doesn’t it? At least that’s the way I see it as I’ve been ‘earning my turns’ since the late 80s.

 @sngltrkmnd:

I think this is the hang up for a lot of people. Earning your turns. And to a point you and others are definitely not wrong. I get it. I road my hard tail the other day and was completely smoked. But guess what I road 25% of the trails I ride on an average E ride.

If you're going to blast emtb's then you should frown on shuttling and resort riding. Both of those you're not "earning" your turns. One could argue that I'm earning them more on my EMTB than those guys are on normal bikes.

Beyond that, you really don't know why that person is on an ebike and not a normal bike. Maybe they ride 4 days a week on their normal bike and this is their once a week eride with the bros. Maybe they have a heart condition and wouldn't be able to ride with their friends without the ebike. Maybe they only have time for a couple rides a month and this is the only way they can keep up with their friends that ride 4 days a week.

So it's much more complex. So my idea is let those people do what they want. It's really not effecting you at all. Just like people on the highway. Want to drive 55 go ahead. Just get out of the fast lane.

I think we get too caught up in other people's reasoning and business. Not what you want, don't do it. I don't like fat bikes but I don't go on and on about how stupid they are. Same with unicycles. You want to ride your unicycle up a gnarly trail go ahead. Just don't be an idiot and be courteous to those around you.

Like I said. I get it and I don't think those people are wrong. But maybe those people are earning their turns in other ways or have earned their turns plenty over the years. Maybe they built the trail you're on or maintain it.

I ride back country snowboarding a lot. I don't like hiking but I'll do it to get what I want. But you offer me a helicopter or snowmobile lift up the hill you bet your ass I'm gonna take it.

 Unless riding mtbs is your job, or you are in some way forced to do it, how come riding can be described as suffering and work? I ride mtb because I enjoy it, and I would suffer if I wouldn't be able to ride.

 Simple, people invented bikes from necessity (cheap transport), and ebikes from pure greed (emtbs really, because commuting ebikes have a lot of sense).

 Laziness and convenience, the curse of the 21st century.

 @ranke: My riding partner does a long commute to and from work and meets me straight away after work for a grueling technical climb as part of the same ride. Guy is an absolute animal.

Though of course it's only impressive because it's all him doing it, not a motor.

 @DirkMcClerkin: that is one in-shape dude, though I've always been more impressed by people's ability to ride a bike downhill well versus how much suffering they can endure. Different strokes.

 Electric-Assist Support Scooter Or eASS

 To be fair, most ebike riders I know, classify those rides as ebike rides on strava. However, not all of them . . . A few bad eggs unfortunately.

 @DoubleCrownAddict: Thats pretty crappy since you can just make segments yourself. But - hopefully the riders who know you or see you on your machine know to flag you for douching the segments. Funny, months ago I saw other readers bashing you and I was defending you but you really take the cake on being a ballbag it appears.

 @Mtn-Goat-13: You can't make segments unless you are a paying member, which I'm not.

 @DoubleCrownAddict: your an idiot

 @BradC56: Come on Brad - its you're not your. At least bash DCA for being a douche with proper English! I stood up for DCA a few months back and a few people took me on for that but now I get it: DCA easily is the King of the Douches in all regards on Pinkbike (and Strava by his own admission) not that saying anything to him makes a difference...

 @DoubleCrownAddict: You do that big boy - just change yr diapers 1st & keep that sippy cup full for the trail! Don't want you to have to actually earn anything on yr own! I've found that pampers are better than luvs for yr age group. Can promise ya this tho: where I ride I'd know exactly who your are and I'd nuke yr fake-tits rides anytime ya e-biked on the trails (as would anyone else) so hopefully the riders in yr area are doing that to you when you show up w/ a stock car for the bike race.

 @Mtn-Goat-13: I'll be focusing on KOM's in the Asheville area this winter, on my e bike. Do you wanna ride sometime?
#EBikeKOM
#FreeForAll
#StravaLegend
#FastestTime

 @DoubleCrownAddict: Bring it moto-boy. You'll find your entire ride history flagged.

I'll bring the diapers & the mum-mums tho, sounds like you like those!

#EBikeKORN
#ImprisonedByBatteries
#StravaLoser
#CantRideWithoutHelp

 @Mtn-Goat-13: You'll know I'm there once all the KOM's get taken by me and you won't flag nothing cause it just looks like I'm riding uphill on a gravel bike at top racing level.

 @DoubleCrownAddict: Sure thing there little buddy... you rule!

See if your dad can drop you off, but don't forget to charge the batts on that dbl-crowned uphill moped marauder before you ride out... wouldn't want you to have to pedal that thing all by yourself...

 Companies want to make money and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. They're not for you and I, but TONS of people buy them.

 @mikelevy: At least in the US, the problem with the conduct of the companies is that People for Bikes (which is the industry and not the people) is running around trying to get all the states to pass ebike legislation that creates classes of bikes that are really intended for paved paths and that don't work for trails. But then those classes are the land managers have to work with and what the industry uses to determine the power, etc. specs of ebikes.

Having a bike that produces as much power and torque as the big ebikes all the way up to 20mph is a disaster for trail networks (self shuttling on fire road climbs for gravity trails is a different story). Should be a Levo SL class of ebikes and that's the class of ebikes we should very carefully allowing on some multi-use, bi-directional trails.

But how do you make that rule and how do users comply when there's no way to designate it other than watts or torque, which is unworkable, and there are just a couple of bikes that would fall within that class (because of the rules the industry itself created).

Also, the companies just want to make money argument is problematic because of all the money and other resources put into creating the trails by nonprofits and volunteers. Without that, all we've got is a limited amount of access to crappy old hiking trails and the industry is making a whole, whole lot less money.

Hard for me to think of another example of an industry that, as a whole, lives off nonprofits and volunteer labor as much as the bike industry yet gives back so relatively little.

 Many riders are looking for easer and more, which is what eMTBs provide. And while not many were asking for them ten years ago, one ride on my local trails shows me that MANY riders are now!

 @mikelevy: people want what you give them, people like junk food or crappy music, generally what can be consumed faster and with less mental or physic effort better.

 this is a good topic, and since the word Tacoma will be mentioned quite a few times, lets make it a taking shot game

 That's an excellent podcast topic - added to the list. No Tacomas or Sprinters allowed!

 @mikelevy: Just met a rider in Bellingham who recently picked up an early 90s Toyota Crown HEARSE and uses it to get his bike to the trails. This guy deserves to be featured.

 After the WaO spy shot went bananas over a Nissan Stagea parked in the background, I think we could come up with some awesome suggestions beyond the basic bro Tacoma/panel van.

There’s a guy that rolls up to Highland sometimes on a Kawasaki Vulcan with a homemade upright rack that I’ve seen a few times - so creative. Personally, I’d love to have an old turbodiesel Benz wagon with a custom slide out tray/cot, maybe a little quicker though. Realistically a Ram C/V panel van is perfect though.

 Us Pinkers need to head on over to NSMB on the regular to check out their Pistons and Pivots features. Always interesting getting to know other people and their reasoning behind the bike and car :-)

 LOL hardly - this is a topic we'd do a podcast about because it's something we talk about. No one even suggested it to me

 wide is the gate to mediocrity

 The environmental impact discussion during the podcast was basically "ebikes are worse for the environment than usual bikes, but don't think about that since you're already doing things that negatively impact the environment." Weak sauce... Feels like they're pushing ebikes.

 @freehubfreemind: Nah, it's just something we'd need to do an entire show about and some research beforehand. That's a big topic. And yes, if we're talking about the environment, e-bikes are an insignificant sliver of impact in the grand scheme of things and I personally believe that shouldn't be a factor in whether someone buys an e-bike or a normal bike... If that's a real concern, the answer is to simply not buy a new bike at all, or maybe just buy a used one. I ain't pushing shit, especially e-bikes

If anyone out there isn't buying an e-bike SPECIFICALLY for environmental reasons, I'd love you to chime in!

 In short, I'd ride one, but I wouldn't take one out with friends on regular bikes. Just like I won't turn up to a group ride in my running kit and expect them to wait for me.

 @AyJayDoubleyou: I had an amazing ride with a friend and his wife (who doesn't ride much) that had 6,000ft of climbing and took four hours or something. He and I went at the hard pace we wanted and she matched us while working pretty hard herself. Everyone got a great workout and had a great ride - that day was an eye-opener.

 @mikelevy: The perfect way to procure said 6K+ ebike is to 'buy it for your significant other'. ;-) Then ride the cr4p out of it for the next year.

 @mikelevy:
Then the two of you are a-s, you could just ride her tempo. Was the ride for maximising training ord for fun?
Just make a harder ride next time.

 @Der-Kaiser: I am 100% an ass, I agree. But no, I don't want to ride her tempo.

 Yeah, a few guys we used to ride with are now on e-mtb's. It's not really an issue for us on mountain bikes as we've come to realize we are doing different and mostly incompatible sports. We no longer climb together, we no longer suffer together, and we no longer celebrate over a cold one at the top together. Besides, the list of excuses why they can longer pedal gets tedious.

 They are doing all that,and they're not riding bicycles.

 Because haters gonna hate!

 We can agree they’re all fun. That doesn’t mean we have to agree on all the other differences, pros and cons. Motorcycles are fun, I love them. But they’re a different thing. Ebikes are a (less different) thing. I have no interest in ebikes at this point in time, so I have no interest in ebike content on Pinkbike. About the same as road bike interest. Road bikes are great and all but I don’t have any interest in them right now either. They have a separate website for those interested in road biking, why not motorized biking?

 E-bikes can be SO MUCH fun, that's for sure.

 @mikelevy: So is cocaine

 @preston67: Agreed. That should be legal as well, but that's a very different discussion.

 Shooting guns on open range is fun. Driving 85 mph down the canyon with the 35 mph speed limit is fun. Driving home after getting faced on hooch at the pub is fun. Smoking cigars in the lobby while waiting to pick my kids up from school is fun. There are a ton of things that are fun, but when your fun threatens the community as a whole we draw a line. Two wheels are fun, but when we're talking about motorizing them and making them heavier and more capable of hauling ass up and downhill your fun no encroaches on other trail users' safety and access.

 @rsmarg: I was actually hit head-on by an e-biker in a parking lot. She half-cranked and the motor pushed her right out in front of me; she flipped over the handlebar but wasn't injured. Wish I had remembered that story for the podcast! I don't think she was on cocaine, though.

 As an owner of a “soft top” ie a convertible car I don’t understand this comment.

 @kingbike2: As an owner of an e-bike, I also don't understand this comment.

 I like that, soon enough the wavestorm movement will take over our trails

 @SteepJobs: surf reference

 Soft tops offer no advantages over a standard car while having several disadvantages. They exist for purely aesthetic reasons. Ebikes have both advantages and disadvantages and are far less aesthetically pleasing than a regular bike.

 @catweasel: I do like sun, though.

 @mikelevy: nothing wrong with that, if you want a heavier, more expensive and complicated car it's not gonna bother me one bit, especially if it puts a smile on your face.
Us outdoorsy types in Colorado already get too much sun, I'll stick with the AC.
Didn't Mini make a cabriolet? Time for a body swap....?

 @catweasel: driving my convertible with the top down is the closest thing to riding a motorcycle, oh wait perhaps an ebike would be better

 @ybsurf: Cool, I'm no surfer so I had to look it up. An article entitled "Wavestorm Makes a Whole Line of Surfboards I Never Knew Existed", seemed like a reasonable place to start.

"recipe for a kind of fun not usually found on a normal surfboard"...
"something that isn’t made for anything other than having as much fun as possible" ...
"a few years on, something refreshing seems to have happened: a large group of people stopped taking surfing so damn seriously" ...
"proving that all those “support your local shaper” folks are quietly shouting into the void" ...

Only difference is e-bikes aren't cheap...

BTW, I tried surfing for the first time back in April... every single surfer told me the same thing... start with a foam board. Yo! So much fun, I laughed my ass off for hours despite never riding out a wave. And if it weren't for the foam, I'd have cracked my skull and ruined the day for everyone.

ebikestorm a'comin! "after all, that was the whole point from the beginning: something that’s extraordinarily fun."

"I can assure you that your lead-faced scowls and petulant water slaps are not as fun as simply sliding around on top of a lump of moving water."

 @kingbike2: dived soft-tops as well as motorcycles. no resemblance of they way it makes you feel. cheers.

 Have you taken an inventory of all the wasted normal bikes? Department store bikes? Flat tired bikes that havnt been ridden in 20 years? The only reason the ebikes are for sale is because people spent more $$$ and want to recoup something… I’d still say the bigger waste of resources is in old bikes that should be scrapped or donated!

 @recon311: flat tires can be easily fixed like pretty much anything on “normal” bikes. And if not repairable, steel and aluminum are much more easily recycled than electronics and batteries. I often see 30 year old bikes still in use- often with newer parts on old frames. Do you think you’ll still see these early gen ebikes in use in 10 years?

 I am a boomer and ride a regular bike and would take great satisfaction in passing you on a steep uphill and flipping you off.

 super73.com/collections/r-series

 And while I'm here, this is coming down the pipes soon - massless batteries, made of material as strong as aluminum that can also hold a charge, might change the world of EVs, e-bikes, and e-aircraft.
scitechdaily.com/big-breakthrough-for-massless-energy-storage-structural-battery-that-performs-10x-better-than-all-previous-versions

 Oh man, I see so many youngsters on fancy e-bikes here in the Sea to Sky area and have no idea how they got them. Not that I'm complaining - it's rad to see them out there, motor or not.

 I’ve been told that Blanchard Mtn allows ebikes, but I am not sure about Galbraith or Stewart Mtn (Brown Pow). There are several other places in Whatcom Co where they are ridden regardless of the rules.

 @sngltrkmnd: every time I've been to galbraith I've seen more ebikes than regular bikes. Though that doesn't mean their allowed by if not nobody seems to care.

 @catweasel: Exactly there is no enforcement ergo there are no illegal places to ride. I fully expect our riding areas to be 50% mopeds in the next 5 years regardless of any "rules"

 @preston67: it’s an interesting point and if the present is any indication, probably true. At this point it’s all honor system all the time. I can’t even imagine land managers spending the dough to create enforcement patrols.
For me, I used to be fired up at the mere suggestion of ebikes on my local mtn. Now, I have much bigger things to worry about like my kid and his chronic condition, and surviving this damn pandemic.

 Other bikes with different motors are even worse!

 @dudegetabike, it's the Levo motor that I prefer, not the Levo SL. At the moment I'd sat it's the smoothest option out there.

You shouldn't need to backpedal through corners, though - lightly grabbing a little brake at those moments will help out. It seems odd to brake while climbing, but it helps a lot on the techy stuff.

 " The constant reason i hear for getting and eMTB is "to get more runs in" then its obvious that bikes are gonna be self-powered very soon - just press a button, sit back and get shuttled back up - why pedal at all,"

Because the law says that pedal assistance is something different, than the throttle of an (electric) motorbike?!?

 @HMRobot45: And the people that will follow that law without the presence of any enforcement are who...

Every Sur Ron rider I've met on bicycle trails are 100% convinced they are allowed anywhere bicycles are.

 @50percentsure: yeah but they aren't allowed there because they are not mountain bikes unlike e-bikes ...

which is the point.

 @HMRobot45: "Aren't allowed" is sadly meaningless without enforcement.
They're not allowed on my local trails either, and they're absolutely everywhere. If people can get away with it they will, it's just how a segment of the population is.

 @50percentsure: this is the same silly argument that there is no point in regulating firearms because people that don't care about rules will do what they want anyway.

 @HMRobot45: Claiming equivalency between the 100% enforcement of a huge issue like firearms regulations and the 0% enforcement of an issue like e-bikes was a truly terrible example.

Looks like topic was "enforcement" btw.

 Nope, we're gonna talk about them here, but there is an e-bike filter at the top of the homepage that you can apply

 that was the original ideea. what is actually happen is allowing ppl who neither can ride up-hill, nor downhill, access to playces well above their skills. the mtb-ers who leave at the base of the mountains, they do have a real reason..more laps per the same amount of time. They are the category for which electrics make sense. The ones I described at first.. well, they should learning how to bike on a green trail in some flat lands, not on real mtb trails on real mtb terrain.

 To be fair, I'm not a fan of lifts or shuttling, either. I'm a hypocrite about a lot of things, but not e-bikes haha

 @mikelevy: you're no doubt a purist pedaller - my comment is more about the general response to them

 Brian will probably make me do that now that he's read your damn comment!

 @mikelevy: only if they all have ‘down the pipe’ cable/hose routing to ensure the swaps are AWFUL

 @mikelevy: ok, I’ll get a petition going.

In all fairness, I’d love to hear your guys take on the podcast why we keep seeing new companies releasing new bars, stems and pedals…. Like there is nothing else they could work towards developing? Unless it’s invisible, I won’t be impressed.

 I coach a high school race team. We used to get "pro deals" on bikes from a couple of shops through association with the races. That stopped last December. Luckily I ordered up a new ride for myself and my daughter just before the cutoff. It was a sweet deal but I get it that they can't keep them in stock so might as well get full price out of them. Hopefully all this craziness ends soon, I like building up bikes almost as much as riding them. Almost...

 I'm currently not into riding e-bikes, but my point is that if I was going to use a motor, I'd want all the power. I don't think that's hypocritical at all. I also walk most places around town where I live, but when I do take the car out I drive it way too fast and make really loud noises.

 @mikelevy: get an e-car. Not loud and noisy. And you can charge it from the sun! Aptera

 If you’re not working for it, have all the things!

 @mikelevy: Loved riding dirt bikes as a kid, 2-strokes with the noisiest exhaust possible wide open on pirated tracks.
Love riding mountain bikes for the exact opposite experience.
The half-way-between those-two options of e-bikes has the appeal of neither.

 It's the proof that "e-mtb"s usp is that they are motor-cycles. Or "moped"s.
Everybody talks about the power and watt-hours; they want motos, just admit it.

And it's fine as long as they are not destroying the trails or access for others.
But they do.

 they are fun if you don't like mtb-ing. If you appreciate how a trail feels on a normal bike, on these electric pigs the feel is gone. They simply dumbdown severely any trail.

if I can understand(but not personally agree with) electrics for those to live at the base of a mountain... for those who live in the flats, electrics are plain stu.id and there isn't any real reason for any mtb-er to ride one. if you have tons of fields and field type of trails(double paths or gravel roads), stop kidding yourself; what you actually want is a motocross bike.

 I hope so...?

 #commentgold

 I'm definitely not a purist and wouldn't want to be one. E-biking just isn't my sport, that's all.

 @mikelevy: Funny, I'm not riding one either but at 60 years old, I can see one in my future, maybe at 70. Your podcast made me realize that I don't need to spend that kind of money on one until they are designed better and some standards come into play. Until then, I'll keep looking for a drivetrain that can handle a 72 tooth granny.

 Just finished filming! Lots of editing to do, so I think it'll be awhile yet.

 even if you were ok with riding an e-bike, your cheapest option to get rideable full suspension, brakes, and drivetrain will start at $7000...

 Remember when suspension was first introduced to mountain bikes and now you can’t find a hard tail or fully rigid bike anywhere? Just joking. I very much doubt that will happen. There will always be non-assisted MTBs. And if there wasn’t, sounds like you’ll have a great business opportunity to make and sell them in a couple years.

 But would you subscribe to Road Bike Action?

 @mikelevy: lol....why ??

 People that wanted to like them before riding them will like them. Nobody that thinks they are mopeds that will jeopardize our access is going to be swayed after riding one. The artificial lurching forward with each pedal stroke alone is enough to turn off anyone skeptical.

 Why the down votes?! Oh wait… The one you pedal is a bike, the one you don’t pedal isn’t!

Ah, I’ve made a huge mistake…

 Agreed

 @mikelevy: please

 I'll stay behind the e-bike curve, thank you

 @mikelevy: Thanks for your reply Mr Levy
You’ve made my night

 i want it to sound like a wet fart

 @sailor74: that’s built in! with the motor you need not worry about your pre-ride nutrition, especially the ‘night before the big ride session beers’ …

Leads to a lot of wet farts on the climb the next day…

 Because I didn't add the e-bike tag

 Missed out Dave, this episode was partial ebike hater paradise

 Bingo