The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 95 - Field Test Down-Country Bike Debrief

 Those soft, soothing tones eh

 They feel cheesy at best. Send It, Shred Til Death, etc, all that stuff is bullshit middle class fancy live, laugh, love type pinterest material. The ones who actually do "Send it" rarely need motivational stickers...

 @Explodo - I am finding (with practice) that just pretending I'm watching things from farther away, just witnessing something, takes the 'taking it personally' out of it for me whether is some asswipe throwing his frosty at the Wendy's staff, a jagoff speeding up to tailgate with brights on, or someone being petty & condescending. Sure - you're involved, but you can change your perspective such that you dont' see yourself as a target or victim (whatever) and that you're just witnessing something that has nothing to do with you and then roll on. Hard to do but I'm working on it and I'm a hella lot happier when I remember to do this vs. feeling victimized otherwise.

 @Mtn-Goat-13: I think you've misunderstood how annoyed I mean I get. It's just the smallest bit of annoyance. I ride a GG which has one of these annoying affirmations right on the top tube, so it's not like it's an "OMG THIS BIKE IS RUINED" level of annoyance. I can't really get mad with people trying to be nice. It's just not the choice I would make.

Thanks for the life advice though.

 @Explodo: My bad...guess I've never seen the affirming lingo on a bike (and missed that in the article, haven't hear the cast yet tho). WTF is this about? And yeah, that would be scrape-off-and-paint or sticker over level of annoyance.

 I just don't understand why you'd put something like that, something that 50% of people are likely to think is stupid to see on their expensive toy, under the clearcoat where it can't be peeled off. It's small beans, but it has to turn some people off, including me.

Hypothetical question: You have the best performing bike in the history of bikes, but it says 'Live Love Laugh' on the downtube in huge letters and is painted a color that makes you want to throw it into the ocean... do you mind?

 @mikelevy: I'd throw Karen and Karen's bike into the ocean (and hope that the enviromental damage was worth saving humanity from motivational insanity)....

 @mikelevy: You could always use it to pick up middle-aged white women.

 @mikelevy: Honestly can't believe someone at Kona signed off on putting '69/420' on the top of the downtube of the ESD, then ran it again for the second model year. Love the bike but it's super, super cringe.

 www.youtube.com/results?search_query=snl+pelotaunt

I'd like a top frame sticker that said ya know: 1) you suck, 2) nice underwear, 3) consider an e-bike. Just respond better to a bit of derision I guess. Thanks Dad!

 @mikelevy: throw a sticker over it and move along. Or a nice black bar. Lol

 Geometry over everything else. But yeah, I think some riders are experiencing exactly that on their trails, even if there are certainly places where a bike like the Spur, as good as it is, can't match something with more travel. Another factor, I believe, is that some people's riding styles just suit a short-travel bike more than an enduro bike. I'd put myself on that list as well, although I'd have to really think about why it's this way.

 The Spur sounds amazing, but the Izzo is on the firmer side of the spectrum. It climbs great, fast and lively, but don't expect a plush ride.

 I'm no proponent of 29 wheels, I actually run 27.5 because I prefer them. But was your buddy, and other riders in your group, riding 27.5 bikes? Just the switch to 29 wheels should be faster, especially in gnarly stuff.

 I just think that 66 degree HA, 1220 wheelbase, 460-475 reach is the sweet spot for east coast shreddy bike regardless of travel figures.*

*for a person of average height range

 @Endurahbrah: Went from 29 to 29, just the bike was the change. These rides are also on some of the sickest, steepest , off-camber cobbed in (off radar) trails around...its kinda shocking. Not endless rock drops and totally insane stuff, but gnarly enough that most people get off & walk down

 @withdignityifnotalacrity: could be it. My buds bike is a Med frame as well so - haven't even ridden it. I'm on XL and could probably use XXL.

 @mikelevy: Maybe so...I've just never even considered this option at all for some the off-camber, steep / rooty terrain here (in the unsanctioned realm). Maybe worth a look now, but I don't know if anywhere I can test an XL or XXL rig of any DC style bike...its a big dive to take.

 @Mtn-Goat-13: Sup bro, wanna give me and my homies a tour during our winter pilgrimage from the frozen northeast?

 Love my Izzo, which has now fully replaced my 160mm travel Reign. Overall Is it "faster", eh not sure. But it's super capable and fun. I really only notice a difference for super chunky big hits, not as forgiving as the Reign that could monster truck through most anything. Maybe your friend was just all fired up feelin that "new bike" vibe.

 @withdignityifnotalacrity: Sure - DM me...have a couple of winter trips planned so of course, if I'm here & slightly depends on the size of the crew. I'm not much into XC, just getting' to the steep off-radar (and some on) gnarly stuff and hitting that. I don't ride Pisgah district much tho, as there's better crowd-less / off-radar stuff closer to home I prefer and its 1.5 hrs from me so mostly don't bother. How do ya even DM here btw...hit me up & lemme know when yr around.

 @Moonie2123: Interesting...and where are ya riding most? Is that trail or more steeper style stuff (and was the Reign overkill for all that?) My bud's a ripper and faster that the rest of the crew anyway, but the Spur put him out even farther (we suspect) as it is fully capable on the steepest stuff since that's rarely miles & miles and since most steep trails still have plenty of steep to moderate pitches that are "normal" riding, where apparently he's picking up even more speed. Anyway- wish I could demo some of these rigs, esp the Izzo and Spur but - that doesn't seem to exist!

 @Mtn-Goat-13: Ya tricky enough getting a bike, let alone a demo. The wait was 6 months for my YT. So far I've ridden it in OR, Moab UT a bit in CO and then NWA. The Reign is certainly more forgiving on big steep tech descents for sure, like where these guys ride around Squamish. But other than the 29" wheels, which is what I noticed most initially on the Izzo, it's only bigger square edge rock hits (at speed) that seem to blow through the Izzos travel, ping. But like u said, even on a techy double black, big chunky elements are more exception than rule. 4-5ft drops , 15ft jumps etc, the Izzo has felt fully capable, then super fast in the flowy stuff. Hope that helps.

 @Moonie2123: I recall seeing the 6 mo wait times and demo-less-ness has been the MO the past nearly 2 years. Heard on that square-edge rock-hits thing and I guess at 130 travel that makes sense. Are you saying that the Izzo is bashing 4-5 ft drops, 15 ft jumps (maybe park style) and just fine?

 @Mtn-Goat-13: Ya it's totally comfortable hitting medium sized park jumps. Bigger drops definitely use every bit of the travel, but it doesn't feel out of it's element. That being said I'm 5'9 165lbs, it might be a completely different story if I was 6'4" 220!

 @Moonie2123: Wild - this kinda sounds like what my friend is saying. We all rode Snowwhoe (WV) bike park several times this summer, all the rest of us on enduro rigs and my bud on his Spur and all his times were faster than us, he hit alll the tables & drops the same, with the lesser travel issue you noted, but still felt fine - he was marauding. I'm 6'4'' and 200 so I'm not sure how this would work but I do know that till I have an extra 5-6K or whatever, nothings gonna happen soon!

 @withdignityifnotalacrity: Revel Rascal size L fits that

 @gsspirit: Yeah those are definitely super cool. Don't see them a ton around here (east coast).

 This!

I’m putting this question here from the “ask us anything” article, since you guys didn’t anwser it (lol)

Loking for your honest opinion here, Levy often talks about the kona process 111 as one of the first downcountry bikes made.
How does it compare to downcountry bikes these days?

If you update some parts for a 2015 Kona Process 111 for instance, like 12 speed drivetrain, dropper post and 4 pot disc brakes, or even using offset bushings for the rear shock and a angleset up front, could it still be a considered a modern-ish bike?

And does it make more sense to you guys buying a used Process 111, and update it were it makes sense, or buy a lower end 2022 29er with similar caracteristics.

Love the podcast guys! Keep it up!

Cheers

 Probably decent with a couple of tweaks, despite the weight though

 @zzz216: I kept a 111 as a +1 for several years. Ran a 140 fork on it with a 1 degree Works headset. Ran a water bottle inside the frame with a quality epoxy/cage hack. I always had other, bigger enduro bikes too, which all verified that the progression rate on the 111 was magical. It felt like it had 150mm travel, but pedaled beautifully. And yeah, that STA....had to point that saddle down and all the way forward.

 @JDFF, the Process 111 was (and still is) a great bike, but it can’t really be classified as a modern downcountry bike. Even when it was first released it was always positioned as a short travel trail bike, which is how it rides.

The weight is one hurdle - that aluminum frame isn’t light, and unfortunately a carbon version never emerged. The geometry was ahead of its time, but nowadays the seat angle looks really slack, and the head tube angle is on the steep side.

I’d love to see an updated version of the 111 - it’s become something of a cult classic for a reason.

 Kaz nailed it. We've talked about getting an old 111 a few times for a comparison test against a new bike but haven't got it done yet. I think we'd find it less impressive now - bikes are longer, slacker, and have steeper seat angles these days. They were working on a carbon version but it never happened.

 @mikekazimer: I definitely agree.

 @mikekazimer:

How was the spark vs the blurr and element? Im looking at these 3 for my next bike for the midwest.

 Wasn't the Process 134 supposed to be kind of the modern take on it? I don't see much hype on it, so maybe they didn't quite nail it...

 @withdignityifnotalacrity: yeah the newer 134 (29er) was an attempt at the old 111, but just wasn't the same.

 @withdignityifnotalacrity: A video on Kona's website has the product manager saying the 134 is the 111 brought back to life. I love my 134... such a fun and capable bike. I think there is just so much competition in the space and some people get turned off by its looks.

 For sure, ETT is still a big factor, even if we almost never talk about it anymore. If you watch the review of the Canyon Lux Trail, Henry talks about how the SA and ETT put him on a medium rather than the large he tried previously. It's neat how everything is tied together.

 @mikelevy: I think the best way to explain it is that reach is the most important dimension for a bike where you’re going to set the saddle up in the same spot relative to the bottom bracket no matter what – like, say, a pure XC race bike, or a road bike. This works really well when most bikes had a similar STA for a given type of riding. If the reach is the same, you should be able to make the bike fit in this case.

I think one really has to take ETT into more account with these newer, more progressive bikes, as the STA varies a lot from bike to bike, and you don’t really see anyone ramming the saddle back on the rails, as it would make a bike with long reach and slack head angle just understeer every turn, and you’d fall off the back climbing.

 I do, yes, but I'm about 155lb so it's going to be different for a larger rider. The 34 and SID are just so damn good these days. If I weighed 200lb, I'd probably want a 130mm Pike instead or something.

 @mikelevy: what if ur hypothetically 175 pound and often choose bad lines?

 @withdignityifnotalacrity: I resemble that comment. I'd go for a Pike Ultimate 130mm, or even a 140mm if I was focused more on descending than climbing.

 id go for a manitou r7

 Side note,currently on an Evil Following with a custom tune DVO shock and getting along quite well with it. However it’s taken years of experimenting with bikes and shocks and having to geek out on leverage curves.

 Let's be honest, the way they've been using it as a benchmark in all the other reviews, you kind of knew from the get go which one they liked most...

 @m47h13u: I agree as far as it being a benchmark which is why I would like to hear more about it before the round table discussion..

 Podcast went up only an hour before the Rocky review

 But how do they compare to the Spur...

 @mikelevy: order of operations..

 @mikelevy: the podcast was available on Acast a couple of hours before the post here (as it usually is) - not sure how much control you guys have over the scheduling on other platforms though!

 To be fair, Levy does mention that there will be 'spoilers'. Plus, we're talking about bike reviews here - it's not like they're race results or the surprise ending of a movie.

 @mikekazimer: "There will be spoilers if you haven't already seen all the reviews "
Nobody had seen the Rocky review when this popped up... Was this an attempt at getting a bunch of interaction?

Waited for the Rocky review before I started listening to this..

 Spoiler alert.. 37 minutes in for the Spur and Stumpy Evo comparison..

 @lumpy873: IDK why they put the Stumpy in the conversation. We wanted the Epic EVO comparison... Maybe they got confused

 God dammit Pink Bike, be perfect at EVERYTHING, we DEMAND it!

 @ksilvey10, there are so many bikes to keep track of... You're right, the Epic EVO makes sense to compare too - I swear someone was asking about the Stumpy in one of the articles. The Epic EVO is closer to an XC bike than either the Element or the Spur. It has a steeper head angle, slacker seat angle, and a shorter reach. The seat tube length is also on the longer side.

It is very light, though, and definitely a fun, fast bike, it's just not quite at the same level on steeper terrain.

 @huckbuckit: and don't even think about charging us for it!

 you're paying for the warranty. if the caynon cracks or a part fails, you're shit outta luck. the caynon also performs like it performs worse than the two you mentioned in my opinion

 But did you watch the Lux review? They basically said it does everything worse than the Blur. Y'all keep acting like the only thing that matters is spec sheet vs price.

 My wife used to have a Juliana (Santa Cruz). Needed new bearings - great, hey, they're warrantied, so at least the parts are free, right? Except the way the warranty works, the local shop (a Santa Cruz/Juliana dealer, no less) had to send the old bearings in to get new bearings sent by Santa Cruz. Meaning we had a choice of waiting 3+ weeks without getting to use the bike, or just paying for parts (the shop, of course, was stocking them) and get back on the trails. Meaning if you actually care about riding your bike, the first replacement is very much on you, and then you have to make sure you follow through on having them send in the old ones, get the new ones, keep them in a safe place, and have them ready to bring to the shop the next time you need a replacement.

I like Santa Cruz bikes - they release solid, well built bikes, they have a well earned reputation for solid customer service, and they do a lot of good stuff to promote the sport and a lot of worthy initiatives around trail access, inclusion/diversity, and sustainability. All around solid citizen. But that whole "bearings are free for life" thing and the big deal being made about it rankles me. If you can't trust your licensed dealers to tell you that hey, here's a customer with a busted bearing, I'll send it to you, please credit me on my next invoice and I'll give them a fresh one to get them back on the trail, then you're missing an opportunity for good customer service and making it harder for your LBS partners.

 @jeremy3220: I'm biased as I've got one, but even I was surprised it was faster downhill than the Blur

 @jeremy3220: Ultimately, tons of riders these days are buying bikes on paper, so if you can save a few hundred or even a thousand dollars and get the same spec, they're going to pick the Canyon.

 @mikelevey @mikekazimer

 I don't feel like I said that, but sorry haha

 @mikelevy: You kept your thoughts in check nicely, but you were leading that way. It's all good.

 @mikelevy: I'm 220 and didn't feel that way at all. You're fine.

 I'll bump his volume up a bit for next time - still figuring this stuff out

 @mikelevy: I think it's something to do with how deep his voice is. Nothing wrong with a deep voice, just might want to adjust the sound for that. I find it's clear in my decent ear cans, but hard to ear in my old econobox car with bad speakers. I don't think there's an issue with the volume he speaks. I'm not a recording expert so idk

 You'd probably enjoy any regular cross country bike, but for this category my money would be on an Epic EVO. Levy seemed really impressed by its 'go fast' character in his review last year (www.pinkbike.com/news/specialized-epic-evo-review-s-works-2020.html). The model in this crop that makes the most sense is probably that Blur TR.

 @mikelevy @brianpark ditto here? no episode 95 or 96 appearing on spotify?

 No insert - the trails around here tend to be more rooty than rocky, so I can get away without one. No issues with the 28 spokes either, but I am on the lighter side of things, and I'd consider myself a fairly smooth rider. I'm fine with the 36-tooth ratchet too, again due in part to what the trail are like around here - there aren't too many slow speed, half-pedal type maneuvers required.

 @mikekazimer: Thanks for the reply! Would you alter that setup if you lived in Colorado? Specifically Denver and surrounding trails?

 Don't tell Frank haha

 Because they are lighter, faster on flat terrain and on climbs, are more nimble, and can be used to race XC. Enduro bikes don't really pedal well at all compared to XC-bikes, they pedal well compared to older enduro bikes. Also, a big bike will just tame everything and feel slow if you don't have steep and technical terrain to ride it on.

 A CX bike is a mini down country bike A down country bike is a mini trail bike. A trail bike is a mini enduro biike. And Lefty's are still the dumbest thing in MTB.

 In a lot of cases, it's for two different approaches to the same trail. I'll ride all the same features/moves on a good DC bike as I would an enduro bike, but I'll have more fun (but maybe be a little slower overall on the descent) on the short-travel bike because of how it performs and how I like to ride. Obviously not always the case - nothing feels better than smashing shit on a big bike sometimes - but more often than not, I'd prefer the little bike for how much life it has.

 I reviewed the new Spark a little while ago, and there are some comparisons to the Spur in there that might be helpful: www.pinkbike.com/news/review-2022-scott-spark-900-tuned-axs-a-hidden-shock-and-all-the-integration.html.

 I'd have to get back on the Epic EVO, but I remember being blown away by how it rode. It's been a while, sorry!

 @mikelevy:Yes, the Canyon M equals the Epic L but besides that naming of sizes the numbers are nearly the same. Same reach, Canyon 2 mm shorter toptube, 1deg steeper head tube, same seat tube angle. Why do you say the Canyon would have a strange geo if they basically copied the Epic Evo, which you loved?

 No, they have bush play far earlier than if it was from riding. I'm talking bushing play from the second or third ride.

 @mikelevy: That's wild. I looked at last year's DC field test, and you mentioned issues their too. Bummer.

 www.pinkbike.com/news/field-test-2022-rocky-mountain-element.html

 I know, we don't understand it either. Worse yet, he says that the name is dumb even though it makes all the sense in the world.

 Please no F1! Especially since Levi called Hamilton the GOAT. Levi knows bikes, not F1 ;-)

 @tommynator: that's what makes it cool to talk about it, after Mexico I said "Max's got the championship already, there is no way for Hamilton to recover" look where we are now....

 @tommynator: I've been F1'ing for longer than I've been riding

 Also, Levy insinuating 250 lb riders don't do laps all day hurts. It's true, but I don't like my flaws pointed out, I'd prefer to ignore them.

 Pedals better, feels rougher haha

 I have a ~24lb Cotic SolarisMAX with a 62.5° HTA, 120mm fork, 213mm dropper, and proper tires. I think that might count.

 I had a Pipedream Sirius S5 this Summer which is very similar to the Cotic. Awesome bike!

 @brianpark: damn, can we get some details on this? That seems ridiculously light for a bike I would guess weighs at LEAST 30 lbs on paper.

 @brianpark: prove it!

 @brianpark: jk found it

 @brianpark: but where we drive the line between a overbuilt ´´hulk smash'' XC and a downmoded trail hardtail?
Basically if i was to put some lighter tires/ lightweight wheels and a 120mm SID on a aggro hardtail i hit the downcountry mark, but when i put some meatier tires, higher travel trail fork on a xc superlight carbon hardtail i now allso have a downcountry bike. The weight between those two builds will be 1:1, comparing the geos, not much change between those two.