The Pinkbike Podcast: What Could the MTB Industry Do Better?

 Had one of the worst experiences dealing the Intense and their "warranty" last year. Part of the blame fell on the bike shop, but I will never buy another Intense...

 I like this.

 Like car companies

 Dammit, I had this one on a list in my head and completely forgot to mention it.

 @jdendy: and houses

 Crash replacement for the 2nd owner at a minimum.

 I would love if trek/specialized/etc would make a ss rigid mtb for 1000 bucks.

 @bulletbassman: Spesh made a rigid Crave/Carve SS not too long ago. Kona has made the Unit forever, used to be ~$1k but sigh, the times.

 Agreed - I think what people miss a bit is a $1k bike in 1993 is what, XT components (at least higher end) while a $2k bike today (equiv cost including inflation) has much "lower" end components, people look at that and complain, but low end components today are for the most part are functionally superior to higher end components back then.

I'd 10/10 times take a $2k bike today than even a $3k bike from 1993.

 @Explodo nailed it. I worked at a shop in that era, a 'higher' end Diamond back APEX, I think was about $800 back then-roughly $1500 in todays money. So, you look at that price point of bike today, you are getting a far superior bike than that Apex. A marin bobcat for under a grand, coop bikes under a grand, trek roscoes, etc etc etc are all bikes you can get fun factor, exercise, and enjoy being introduced to MTB

 @bulletbassman: HellSS YeSS! Bring back the Superfly SS

 $1000 in January '93 has the buying power of $2,097.97 in January '23, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI Inflation calculator (www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm). Right now, Trek has a sale on a Roscoe 7 for $1649, which is a pretty capable trail bike IMO, especially when compared to bikes from the early '90s. So I agree that while prices have gone up, staying in the low to mid range of bikes will get you a much better value and more capable bike then you could get in the last 30 years.

 @cyclecuse: SS still has 98% of the parts a normal bike has, why would it sell for half price?

 I got a great deal from a shop on a new hardtail from a with a decent trail build because the frame had a tiny dent in the top tube.

I found a Rootdown frame and moved the parts over. All in for $2300 and I don’t see anyone having more fun than me on the trails.

 I fully agree. It was mentioned in the podcast, but the TOP of the line bikes are WAY more expensive than the top of the line bikes ever have, even taking into account inflation. But you are getting WAY more bike for that dollar too. An equivalent inflation adjust dollar gets you more bike today than before.

 So I just went and looked and I bought a 2013 Trance X 29er back in the day. If I had paid full price it would have been $4,250.

Alu frame, XT 2x, alu narrow wheels, external dropper, and one of the worst "modern" forks.

I just bought a Capra Core 4 AXS. Same exact price: Carbon frame, Factory 38/X2, Code RSC, X01 AXS, etc.

Yes bikes have gotten more expensive, but I have to agree that it seems to be mostly the top end. And the bikes now are way more capable.

If you adjusted the Trance X for inflation it would be much more expensive than the Capra.

 @stikmanglaspell:
Absolutely!
Old school geo totally turned me off to Mtn biking for over a decade.

 @RadBartTaylor: So. You should compare the xt version with the xt verisimilitude for then. My bike form 7 years ago was £4k. The current version with the same spec, so xt and factory suspension is now £6,600 so 65% more. If it went up by just inflation it should cost £4,900 according to the Bank of England

 @chrismac70: I think they’re making the point that a current Deore drivetrain and brakes are as good or better than XT from 7 years ago. Even though it looks like “ugh, Deore on a $4000 bike? I got XT for that 7 years ago!”, the new Deore bike is better.

If you’re mad that you can’t afford a top of the line bike any more, that’s a different question.

 @sfarnum: I’d argue the deore derailleur and brakes are better than the xts currently.

 @bulletbassman: Blasphemy!

 @Explodo: yes. One is a motorcycle and one is a bicycle

 @Dillonmennie: A throttle-less motorcycle would be a hard sell to moto riders. Good luck with that comparison.

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:AcceleratedTrailDeg has entered the chat

 Agreed. I had it in my notes but don't know if I mentioned it—it'd be nice to see more standardization in eMTB motor components.

 @brianpark: I totally get it if the manufacturers don’t want the average Joe cracking open their motors and poking around complex electronics, but I should at least be able to send it or bring it somewhere to have somebody who’s been trained properly, replace a cracked spindle or worn bearings. Repair>Replace, if possible.

 @PHX77: ehhhh I won't make industry friends with this but IMO if manufacturers want eMTBs to be treated as bicycles from regulatory and access standpoints, then they should make commitments to user service and repair.

 @brianpark: As well, I would like to see motor mounts be standardized, so you're not locked into one motor. A lot would have to change to make this happen...but damn that would be nice! As well, standard connections for accessories like lights and computers so everything can run off of one battery.

 @brianpark: I wouldn’t worry at all about not making industry friends especially if you are talking about bicycles

 Agreed. Anyone know when RockShox patent protection period ends?

 @jason3559: Levy made a great point about it being a limiting factor on forks. I swapped out my 150mm air shaft assembly for 160 on my Fox 36. The sag indicators wouldn’t be much help after. All for it on shocks though!

 @tomfoolerybackground: RS usually has different tiered indicators for a different travel. Has a label of travel mm on each gauge

 Trail etiquette would be a great podcast topic, added to the list.

 I'm not sure if trail etiquettes are up to brands and shops to teach. Trail associations put out signs and websites to let trail users know about trail conditions, etiquettes, warnings, trail building events, etc. There are social media websites where people talk about these things. So, it's not something that totally brand new. Most people in and out of the biking circles or within the communities know all this stuff. Meetup groups will also specify etiquettes. It's also common courtesy to be kind to one another and don't wreck the trails for everyone. But some are just idiots who think they're more entitled than others to do whatever they want, no matter what. I think it just comes down to people you ride with or associate with. I definitely like to thank most of my biking friends and trail associations for teaching me those etiquettes and keeping the trails in good condition. In terms of funding, I do believe local shops do provide that to different trail associations. It only makes sense since without great trails, these shops won't be in business very long.

 @CSharp: Years ago, the MTB publications used to push trail etiquette. PB, as a modern equivalent, should do so as well.

 @CSharp: that assumes everywhere has established trail organizations maintaining the trails

 With respect to riding etiquette, as an MTB'r for 37 years my "ought" is that etiquette ought to cut both ways. For new riders and seasoned riders. The interaction of being the faster or slower rider - either up or down - happens to all riders.

No doubt there has always been etiquette bias, but it's got strong legs at the moment - looking forward to that Podcast.

 1000% agreed. I’ve had a lot of mountain bikes—everything from full carbon Santa Cruz to xt/kashima yetis, to $900 hard tails. Of all the bike my favorite was a mid-level yt jeffsy alloy that I got on sale for $2500. It did everything just as good as the Carbon Santa Cruz that I have now which was literally twice as expensive as that YT.

 Commençal Supreme frame costs almost half the price only 2 years ago

 @norfiril: Yes, so have a lot of things. Inflation is huge right now and I don't see it slowing down for a while.

 I don't think it's just marketing, but also the change of each brand's models market segment. For someone like me who has been riding since the 90's, getting a new MTB every year with at least an XT groupset was just the norm. Back then there was a big gap in quality between high end stuff (i.e. M950) and entry level (i.e. STX/Alivio), suspension/forks, finishing kit, etc, and a new refresh every year was just the norm. Today, I could be totally happy riding a Deore bike for a few years before getting something else because durability and performance have caught up.

 Mpsbl

 My 2016 Orange was £4k. It’s now £6600 for the same spec. If it went up by inflation it would be £4900

 Huge fan of your #1 comment here. #2 as well but e-bikes are my area of expertise.

As a general example, FOX goes as far as to remove public facing service manuals/ won't supply them when asked, discontinues service seal kits for their suspension after 5 years-ish, and discontinues the proprietary tools to conduct service/ won't provide the specs to have them machined. Their solution is to have some availability of their current offerings with retro active compatibility. It's not great, but not terrible.

Brands such as Santa Cruz and Rocky Mountain currently have a decent selection of publicly available product information and proprietary replacement parts (pivot bolts & bushings, hangers, etc) dating back over two decades. The RM element platform has pivot bolt/ bushing support back to 1997. Thats not bad in my humble opinion.

 @progressioncycles: fox has 7 years worth of service manuals on their site, which is silly because they all come apart the same way and use the same torque values. Every 34 uses the same lower service kit regardless of age. unless you have some strange desire to rebuild a talas damper or something you can get anything you need to rebuild any fox fork.

 @progressioncycles: I agree that Rocky is one of the better examples of offering small parts and I have been grateful to get some from them to keep old rides running. I'd also like to see some ability to get frame parts like chainstays and swingarms too.

With FOX I've had a different experience. I can put in the serial number for 8 year old products and get information albeit the parts are harder to come by. I'm impressed by the modularity and innovation of some of the aftermarket suspension service shops that can retrofit a lot of older FOX stuff - although the cost can start to approach replacement prices.

 I thought this was actually law in the EU for some reason I know it is in automotive can’t remember if it’s 7 or 10 years parts availability , there’s also the right to repair legislation which I think was 2022 means spares would have to be available somehow somewhere or they’re in breach of that , I suppose the only way these things happen is when someone with the money takes them to task over it not very likely for a bike costing 2-3k when it’s broken

 Thanks Karl.

 I agree, but while we’re working toward regulatory action, let’s vote with our wallets, buying local and buying metal.

 Ugh, I’m annoyed this wasn’t on my list.

 @brianpark: don’t you think pinkbike is a massive contributor to the problem

 @Dillonmennie: No, we are not.

 @mikelevy: As long as you’re recycling all those Monster cans…

 @Adamrideshisbike: Karl was correct in his critique of capitalism my friend.

 @kokofosho: Yeah, his theories have led to great things.

 @kokofosho: Karl Benz?

 Agreed!

 did they say why the shock had to go back? unless its a warranty thing i don't see why it would need to go out of the shop.

 @Jheitt142: I think a lot of shops don't service suspension, they take it off and ship it out. Personally I've invested in the tools to do it myself so I don't have this issue!

 @ChiefSilverback: agreed with what you said, and to add that I've only ever been to one shop that has the proper nitrogen setup for fox shocks. Full rebuilds always need to be sent away in our shop.

 @Jheitt142: shock was cavitating badly and I was aware of it. I wanted it dealt with before March, dropped it off Jan. 31, and here on Mar.9, am still waiting, with nobody seeming to make an effort to get me an indication of when I’ll get it back. Makes me feel uneasy, like nobody when I’ll be able to ride.

 It's never going to compete with football or running, but one can buy a very capable used bike for £1000-1500 that could literally win races under the right rider.
Geometry has stabised since 2016 and anyone can afford one good set of tyres a year.
Low cost riding can be done, to a point at least.

 @jaame: the don't make many cheap bikes in adult size; I'm 194 cm in bare feet

 Well back when everyone thought that shorter CS = better in all circumstances, the "best" geometry was on the largest bike. But now it seems to me that most bikes are "optimized" for medium or large, and then the other sizes are afterthoughts. I'll also give props to brands that have smaller wheel sizes on smaller sizes here.

 Have you ridden out here? There's a misconception that regularly shows up in the comments that somehow everything in the PNW is either crazy steep or gnarly (or full of flow trails by your account), and that if a bike was designed for the PNW it won't be as good on the East Coast, etc..., which simply isn't true.

The thing is, there's a huge variety of terrain. From my back door I can ride rolling cross-country trails, trails with techy slow speed singletrack climbs, and yes, all sorts of steep, rowdy descents as well.

Does someone in Iowa need a bike with a 63-degree head angle and 180mm of travel? Probably not, but that's why companies have different models in their lineup for different uses.

 @matyk @mikekazimer: Agree with you both. I would love to see regional sales data. I imagine the reason they “design for the PNW” is because sales are very strong in the region, likely more so than any other North American market, and they’re playing to the crowd. And to Mr. Kazimer’s point, the PNW moniker can double as marketing speak for bikes built for the gnar.

 well... a new honda or yamaha 450cc motocross bike is definitely better fabricated than any mtb you can buy. mtb prices are a complete joke for what crap quality you get.

 I'd love to see a slightly different one each week based on the topic, spot the difference kinda thing.

 I hope you are enjoying the last bike you'll ever own then.

 this would double the price at a minimum of every bike. and yes component development costs that much, but it does trickle down pretty quick

 @Jheitt142: WR1 isn’t double, Guerrilla Gravity isn’t double, Allied isn’t double.

 The biggest reason frames are made in Taiwan and China is because that’s also where the components are made. It’s an incredibly short supply line to get complete bikes built. They then take a slow, but economically and environmentally inexpensive (compared to land and air alternatives) boat to destinations around the world.

So, for what you are proposing to really work, you would need component factories in each country to supply that country.

 @ShopMechanic: SRAM is a US based company… they should also manufacture in the US.

 Fortunately tech being stagnant will Be a good thing for mtb

 1) "Stop feeding the cheap labor globalism import experiment."

Experiment? How long does something go on before it's no longer an "experiment"? (Disclaimer: I'm not an economist or CEO of a large corporation so my knowledge of how to keep costs low and profits high is lacking.)

2) I won't necessarily speak for Specialized, but with some manufacturers, within a given range of bikes in the same family, the frame dimensions and geo are the same but the type/quality of carbon changes. So, it may be fair to say you consider the bike overpriced, maybe even double, but it's not just because of upper-tier component choices. (Disclaimer: this is allegedly happening as I'm not an industry insider or engineer at Specialized or BMC or the like. I am subject to their promotional literature.)

 Using your example of Specialized, I think S-Works uses different, much more expensive carbon for the frame, and then they have all the high end components. Top tier AXS which easily costs $2000 more than the SX/NX/Deore on the entry level model, carbon rims, high end hubs, AXS dropper etc...

 @iammarkstewart: On a scale this big... an economic experiment could last many decades before enough data and enough situations occur (i.e. Covid, child and slave labor, energy/transport, profiteering) to realize a mistake has been made.

Meh... the multiple (usually 2) carbon layups manufacturers offer are just another way to charge more... its hardly different, and hardly more expensive to manufacture... you could argue having 2 processes is more expensive than a single, same with the SX vs XX1, Rythem vs Factory, etc. Why make the low end stuff? Do we need an SX shifter? Does the SX shifter really cost less to produce than a GX? Because it provides a low bar to exceed and charge more to do so.

 @ChiefSilverback: The only difference is the linkage... carbon vs AL. Thats the whole point of my thought... Why is AXS $2000 more than entry level? It's too large of a gap for the same basic function.

 @Baller7756: actually, they do. Zipp wheels are made in Indianapolis. Up until AXS came out, Quarq power meters were made in Spearfish, South Dakota. Not sure if this matters to you or not, but SRAM chains are all made (every price point) in Coimbra, Portugal.

Just curious, what should SRAM do about their chain manufacturing? Should it be in the US, or should each country independently, but also collectively, disallow international businesses to exist? Or, should each country make all of their bike parts in their country, for their country?

 This is a strange comment... you're sitting here saying how upset you are that your 2021 bike cost double, but you chose to pay that. The bike company is sitting there saying, "Well eugenux is clearly okay with our prices, he bought it." Vote with your wallet.

 @bishopsmike: well, there is a difference. I used to have 3-4 bikes at the same time.. now I only have one so, I do "vote" with my wallet.

 I had those gloves!

 Sorry.

 @brianpark: You were bang on - enthusiast driven leadership is a big part of why the industry is rad. I laughed out loud when I heard spreadsheet people. No actual offense taken.

I work at a construction company that purposefully recruits ‘builders’ rather than spreadsheet people. But we all wind up as at least part time spreadsheet people in the end.

 Yep. I've got one in for testing now.

 I agree. It is in the best interest of bike companies (especially the local ones) to help and lobby the local land management bureaus for more trail use. Not just ebikes for all mtb-ing. If there are less trails or no trails for their products, they don't do as well.

I don't have an ebike currently, but know I will likely get one in the near future because of overuse injuries and not riding as much. Right now, Midpeninsula won't allow them at all, yet they have some of the best trails for ebikes because of really steep climbs. Only Santa Clara County trails and possibly Santa Clara Valley Open Space Authority trails (might want to double check).

 Why? Make your own decisions. Being a sheep is no excuse.

 But then how would capitalism survive?

 @DirtCrab: bleat bleat bleat