Velo Digest: New Hour Record, Continuous Lactate Monitors, ’90s Stumpjumper Transformed, & Matt Beers Joins Specialized

 it's the small S that matters this time

 Matt Beer, Mike Bear, and Dick Pound walk into a bar...

 *Mike Levys

 @bigtim: whoooosh

 @blissindex: no, I got the levo connection. Just adding another option. *shrug*

 sorry.

 I’m not knocking gravel bikes — I definitely want one. But it is kind of funny that people have been saying here for years, “Gravel bikes are just 90s mountain bikes,” and then this video kinda confirms it. But it is a cool concept. I have a 2002 Specialized Stumpjumper that I’ve thought about doing something similar with, but for all the extra work and parts I’d have to buy, I think I’ll just buy a new bike.

 It's great and I love how it looks, but it seems like the video really glosses over the fact that he welded brake mounts to an alu frame without heat treating, and then cut out the seat stay bridge to fit 700c wheels! And in the end the only part of the original bike you're really keeping is the frame that you've now substantially weakened after it was already 25 years old...

 forgive my ignorance but, is this lactates as in lactic acid?

 @naptime: it's lactate from sweat. There is discussion just now amongst the gurus on is lactate acid a thing! Mind blown for me.
My knowledge is basic.
Lactate serves as a mitochondrial messenger to shift ATP production from glycolysis to oxidative phosphorylation, allowing cells to conserve glucose whilst using lactate-derived pyruvate as their preferential substrate to support celular ATP production....

Ok... I copied that from the internet.

Lactate goes up when more ATP is needed (the muscles energy source), the fitter you are the better your mitochondria works to clear lactate and you don't get as tired (probably got my basic version wrong).
Everyone has their resting lactate or base lactate level and the training zones are best defined from the lactate thresholds. Zone 1,2 3 (apple has zone 1,2 then 3,4, then 4,6,7 to cover 1,2,3 others use 5 zones but they are all really trying to use HR to guess lactate threshold 1 and lactate threshold 2 (LT1, LT2)). These LT's show where your effort to power and therefore fitness is, also allow you to train much more efficiently and effectively compared to just measuring HR and guessing.
I read (listened to a pod cast) that someone who is very well trained might have a resting lactate of around 0.7mmol/L and and LT2 that's lower than the resting lactate of an obese T2 diabetic. Trending resting and LT1 of someone after health benefits of a better diet and exercise regime is a better indicator of recovery that HBA1AC potentially. I imagine combining HR with HBA1AC and lactate is a very powerful tool that could be used to benefit T2's. Only guessing as I am not a doctor, but have worked in the diabetes field for a while.

 @naptime: We are talking about breast pumps, they tend to increase lactation.

 @in2falling: @in2falling: Badum Tssssssss. wow that's way above my training knowledge! All I knew was Lactic acid causes tired muscles so be sure to 'light spin' the acid out of muscles after a hard workout/ride for better recovery?

 @naptime: Ice bath on legs for 10 minutes after workouts/rides helps pump out lactic acid also.

 Yeah this could be a big step forward in training. In the past we used heart rate to estimate lactate levels, which is a poor estimate but in the absence of better ways is ok. Then power meters came out and we still were using estimates and other measures to estimate lactate production. I imagine being able to train to an exact effort level with direct measurement will allow athletes to maximize their performance.

 I see the point in it, and I'm probably just old but I love road racing. Since power meters became the norm now riders just stare at their power meter, and it makes the racing boring. Right now the UCI is saying no to constant lactate monitors in racing but if a racer knows exactly how much power they can put down and at what power / heart rate they become anerobic we might as well watch robots race bikes.

 @snide: even if you can't use a CLM in a race, if you use it all the time in training you will have you power mostly dialed for LT1/LT2 I would think? They can't vary that much week to week.

 @naptime: lactates are salts of lactic acid.

 You're not wrong, but price is a factor as well. I got a road bike in 2009 with a Veloce build from a bike maker that offered various build kit options on the same frame (Marinoni). I think I paid about $100-150 CAD more than I would have for the equivalent Shimano build. It was great and is still great as my commuter bike drivetrain all these years later. But replacing parts can get expensive compared to other drivetrain makers. So no only was there a marginally higher up-front cost, but the maintenance costs over time could be higher as well. The only saving grace is that Campy stuff is a lot more rebuildable and you can source small parts, so you can fix a lot more things instead of replacing them. But that doesn't help for wear parts like cassettes.

So if you're a product manager and you need to spec a drivetrain, you already see a bit of potential savings in going with shimano to hit your target MSRP. Plus you know that a lot of customers perceive there to be higher aftermarket costs for maintaining campy stuff. That makes it feel like a higher risk to spec campy on your build.

I guess the real question if if Campy wants to compete in the OEM market with Shimano and SRAM, or if they want to be more like the Chris Kings and Industry 9s of the bike industry: making really good stuff and charging a premium for it to cover the higher costs of domestic manufacturing.

 What does Campag actually offer in 2024 in terms of competitive advantage against Shimano and SRAM on road though?

 @gramboh: Nothing I'm aware of really other than serviceability. That's why I'm guessing they're a better fit in the market in a place like those more boutique, domestically-manufactured product brands. My Cane Creek Helm isn't really better than a fox or RS fork, but it's as good and it's interesting to have something different on my bike for a change, plus it's super high quality and pretty easy to service.

 I’ll be sad to see them go if they do.
I’ve got an old road bike (20+yrs) all campag. It just works and continues to work. Shift quality is consistently great. It has turned me into a bit of a fan.

The old adage I used to hear was;
Campag wears in, everything else wears out.

If I was to build a road bike from scratch, it would have a record groupset. (Though I’d probably need a lottery win).

 @ironhorse-rider: They're not going anywhere. Campag going out of business is a conversation that started in 1981. "They can't compete with Shimano AX"

 @big-red: Spot on. Add that the stuff is made in the wrong side of the planet, far away from the Asian frame makers. Are you going to export it from Italy/Romania to China/Vietnam?

But, this poses a question to those PM: What are you offering with your Asian made frame and your Shimano/Sram groupset that is any different from the other 50 brands offering exactly the same? Especially on the road side of things where you don't even have a different rear suspension config/antisquat curve to offer. You better write one of those white papers comparing you aero performance to actually nothing and hope that there's enough people gullible enough to vote for it with their wallets. Sure a happy magazine writer mentioning it in fridely terms will help.

It's not going to be Campag folding, not another SunTour this time. It's going to be Outside, Velo, their competition and many of those 50 brands.

 Inevitable

 Depends on whether you specialize in running companies or in beers

 but a damn fun one, I must admit

 I'm stuggling with a long term injury and my gravelbike is allowing me to get out into nature and ride, keeping me physically and mentally in shape. If this goes against your grain please seek help.

 @naptime: To be fair, mountain bikers can't really corner either. They want berms on every trail.

 @colincolin: I get it, the flag next to my nickname suggests I got no humor, but, well, I guess most people got the intention.

Out of interest: what does the gravelbike do better regarding your injury than an XC bike?

 @Muckal: it keeps you off myb trails. The whole "gravel bikes make mtb trails more fun" thing is a hoax. Gravel bike marketing is all bs, but having a bike specifically for gravel roads is fun. Basically its a road bike you can ride away from car traffic. I have a 10 mile crushed limestone loop that goes through the woods by me, my xc bike is really unnecessary for that, and a true road bike is way too sketchy for that surface.

 No doubt invented by big small tire lobbyists to push their anti suspension agenda.

 @RonSauce: I agree that the XC bike is more capable than what is needed for gravel roads, but what are the upsides of skinny tires, no suspension (I suppose?) and a hunched over riding position? I am genuinly trying to learn something here, especially as I know of at least two people who sold their gravel bikes stating they can't do anything properly.

 @naptime: So you're mad that your local trails are so boring even the gravel bikers have to cut cross country to get a thrill and you're still riding a mountain bike on them?

 @Muckal: can be difficult reading between the lines when there is onle one line.

Got a madly slow healing ankle injury which kind of prevents me from standing on the pedals for longer periods, especially on bumpy trails. Having to sit on the saddle most of the time I find drop bars to be the way. Also covering more distance with a more efficient bike is low key fun. Hate to say it.

 @matyk: @matyk: Haha, this! At least I need berms.

 @Muckal: my gravel bike has 2.2" tires and riser bars. It's basically a steep rigid single speed, old xc bike. Its perfectly comfortable. The weight and narrower bars make it less cumbersome to move on trains so it also has double duty as a commuter. The spectrum of what people actually ride isnt the same as what's marketed to you. Similarly every mountain biker isn't on a 180mm full carbon 29er. Build a gravel bike, dont buy one.

 I’d think Germany would be a great place for gravel biking. I did a week-long, 400km bike tour in Bavaria once on a cheap bike I rented from the Munich train station. I rode across all kinds of surfaces — blacktop, gravel, cobbles, single track. Steep climbs, flat stretches — everything in between. It was a good time, but I think if I only had a nice gravel bike, it would have been perfect for it.

And you mentioned a hunched over riding position — on a gravel bike, you’re not as hunched over as you think. They have more of an upright, mountain bike feel than a standard road bike.

 @RonSauce: You might think it's a hoax, but that's just that; your opinion.
I do absolutely have more fun riding mtb trails on a gravel bike. Modern mtb's are too capable, it's like riding over a twig with a tank. Where's the fun in that?

 @BobbyLite: Small tire (well, wheels, actually) lobbyist with anti suspension agenda here. Didn't invent it - wished I did - but sure do absolutely love it.

 @Muckal: Look up 'underbiking'. That's it.

 @RonSauce: so your gravel bike is not a gravel bike, but a rigid XC bike.

 @WhateverBikes: I sure know what underbiking means. One winter I rode a LT HT turned rigid bike. It was fun, but my wrists didn't like it. Still that's not a road bike with wider knobbly tires.

 @Muckal: Gravel bikes go from 'road bikes with wider knobby tires' to 'nineties rigid mtb's with bigger wheels and flared drop bars', and everything in between.
That means you can choose a type that fits the kind of riding you do, but that will still be very allround. I love that my bike is super fun and playful on mtb trails - and it really calls on my riding skills, which I like - but also feels fast and fun on the stretches of easier, wider forrest roads and on the occasional tarmac. On my mtb those latter stretches always felt boring, a chore.
Also, like @RonSauce already said, gravelbikes certainly don't all have skinny (as in 'like on road bikes') tires. Mine are 2.0" wide. I'm also not hunched; my hoods are at the same level as my saddle and I'm not super stretched. It is sporty though, as that makes the bike feel inviting to ride fast.
If I want comfort I choose my couch at home.

 @WhateverBikes: ok, so drop bars are mandatory?

 @Muckal: I can at least give you my perspective why I enjoy gravel riding. Most of my mtb riding is regular trail riding , where I usually have to drive to the trails to get started. What I enjoy about gravel is simply picking a target from home and spinning away from my door step, but without all the downsides of road biking (traffic, needing smooth roads). Yes the riding position with drop bars was strange at first, but once you have it figured out, it actually is very comfortable for long rides. I still enjoy mountain bike rides a lot more, but gravel is a nice vehicle for going anywhere quickly, as well as commuting to work.

 @Muckal: you are going to have to define what you think a gravel bike is. Apparently I modified a road bike too far for your argument. If you can only have one bike, and xc bike will be fine, but I live in one of the flattest places on earth and most of my miles riding an xc bike is overkill.

Drop bars are usually on gravel bikes to get you in a better position for grinding out miles but I cant bunny hop with drops so I like flat bars. Im more of a 30-40 mile guy, im not doing hundreds so its an easy sacrifice.

 @Muckal: Everybody should do as they please, of course, and I am certainly not the one to decide on the definition of what a gravel bike is. I can only speak for me, and even doing so I realize my opinion in probably heavily influenced by what the general consensus is.

So that all being said, gravel bikes with flat bars, for me, don't feel like gravel bikes. That's just a hybrid bike, or whatever name you apply to that.
To be clear, that is not a judgement, in fact, my own bike, which I call an adventure bike, or a gravel-ish bike, is a 1994 mtb that I set up with faster tires, a 1x group, and dirt drop bars. All that together makes it feel (and look) like a gravel bike. Funny thing is that I am planning on dropping the drop bars. Not because I don't like it, but because I want to use mtb brake levers and mtb shifters.

TL;DR: I don't mind if a bike doesn't have a drop bar, it just does not really feel like a gravel bike to me in that case.