Video: Frameworks vs. Raaw vs. Orbea - Editors Reviewing Each Others Personal Bikes

Feb 12, 2024
by Pinkbike Originals  


photo

Henry's 150mm Orbea Occam LT isn't that exciting, and that's why he likes it... apparently. In a sea of exciting, weird, and wonderful bikes, his choice of the mild-mannered Occam might seem slightly left of field but after a winter thrashing about BC on the all-mountain bike he enjoys its simplicity and get-on-and-ride nature. He describes it as a reliable palate cleanser. That said, even he can't quite stomach the internally routed headset.

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Kaz has possibly outdone himself when it comes to sensible builds and has spent several months aboard the new Raaw Madonna V3. The enduro bike has cutting-edge geometry, mixed wheels and travel aplenty. The cut-spike on the front is suited to Bellingham's wet-soft dirt although it won't be for everyone, even if the simple elegance of a well-made metal bike probably will be.

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In some ways, Dario's Frameworks Trail Bike is a very similar bike to the Raaw, and almost feels like a prototype version of the former. That said, it does have that one-of-one magic that you could never get with a production bike. Dario sums it up well when he says that it's merely a machine to hold suspension and geometry points, and while that's true it's hard to not admire some of the things the Frameworks project represents.

Which bike would you most like for your own?



Posted In:
Reviews and Tech Videos Roasting Eachothers Bikes Enduro Bikes Frameworks Orbea Raaw


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194 Comments
  • 106 6
 The RAAW madonna is the most sensible bike here to want to own, but that frameworks is sexyyy
  • 136 21
 Are you sure you are in any condition to make that decision? Time for some ice cream and a nap.
  • 122 0
 @Caddz: Have you considered why I always look out of it? Everyday, all day, the main thing on my mind is shredding some trails. Politics come second.
  • 10 1
 @joebiden: Please no old school clips on the trail.
  • 4 0
 @vapidoscar: And no coming to a stop. The daredevil.
  • 5 8
 I mean they look basically the same.
  • 6 2
 @wolftwenty1: IRL the frameworks just look special, theyre not the same.
  • 5 5
 Did the Frameworks ace the sniff test?
  • 13 0
 Have we considered that maybe IT'S THE FRICKEN LIGHT SABERS MAKING THE BIKES LOOK AWESOME?!
  • 3 0
 @vapidoscar: yep, made that mistake once before, never again. Now have crankbros stocked on all presidential
bikes.
  • 4 0
 @Caddz: Fixing the Super Bowl is hard work!
  • 2 0
 No words about the FAST shock ?
  • 4 3
 @Vincent66: If the ANTI-BIKING republicans wouldn't kill our every policy, every new mountain biking company would receive tax breaks and government help, to help support innovation.
  • 2 1
 @joebiden: to many concussions led to your current state right?
  • 2 0
 @d-dog12: too many bad bitches, a problem you wish you had. When you can shred as hard as me, they just kinda show up. Luckily, im sneakier than old Clinton.
  • 57 1
 Brands listen up. What we want is aluminium trail bikes with good geometry, tyres, brakes and sensible cable routing.

Raaw I salute you and Framework’s I can’t wait until you get a refined version of this to market.
  • 13 0
 This is the way.
  • 13 1
 Or put differently, we just want the bike price and quality to be reasonable and the bike be easy to work on. If you can make carbon for the price of alu and with comparable or better reliability and quality, be my guest.
  • 4 2
 Check our Knolly’s line. Only aluminum and they’re a great Canadian company.
  • 3 3
 @tdmsurfguy: missing out on looks though
  • 3 1
 @Muscovir: This is the way
  • 1 0
 @dtheio: not anymore, they look great now imo
  • 5 1
 true that! PB make an all Aluminum review with brands like Frameworks, Raw, Banshee, Commencal, Knolly and so on, I think there is an huge interest for affordable, easy to maintain well spect bikes and no need for 10k's plus Santas or specs....
  • 1 0
 @Xrissale79: This is something that intrigues me, brands want to advertise 10k carbon sh*t, which means that they make more profit on it? So like the US market is so vast that it's easier to make money on 10k bikes than on 4k bikes? Because it seems so just looking on PB reviews. So maybe we are just poor and should shut the f*ck up Smile
  • 4 0
 @Xrissale79: Also Privateer and the Ibis AF bikes
  • 3 0
 @lkubica: You can cross Frameworks off the list then. $4500 DH alloy frame price is far from "reasonable", don't see the enduro frame being any different.
  • 2 0
 @bikebasher: It could be, maybe. The run on the DH bike was very small. I think it was around 100 frames based on pre-order. Perhaps if they do a larger run on the trail bike, due to higher demand, maybe they can bring their costs down a bit by buying raw materials in higher volumes? Hard to say though, that is a really small outfit.
  • 2 0
 Bird Bikes out of the UK has all of this and are great prices!
  • 2 0
 @lkubica: i have no idea if a 10k bike makes me a better rider but I can tell the 2200€ I've spend on a second hand commencal tr 21(almost 6k new) give me the best ride for a buck feeling I can imagine even I'm poor as f*ck ;-) and that thing rips
  • 2 0
 @korev: even Propain and Nukeproof got some really interesting all bikes on offer... well spec and affordable...
but I'd like to throw my legs over a privateer one time these bikes look great
  • 2 0
 Banshee. Can vouch, they're indestructible, have a fantastic ride, and the raw looks amazing.
  • 47 1
 Really like the Raaw Madonna. Clean lines. Cables are on the down tube. Just looks aggressive to me.
  • 10 10
 Yup - shame about the limited seatpost insertion depth, looks pretty much perfect otherwise.
  • 14 0
 @scotteh: Kaz commented somewhere that he runs a 210mm OneUp post completely slammed in his size L frame. Do you really need a longer post than that?
  • 3 1
 @Muscovir: Nope, 210 is perfect.

Something doesn't add up since the 210 OneUp insertion depth is 297, and the Raaw website says maximum insert of 268 on a large...
  • 19 0
 @scotteh, that’s a 210 installed in the photo above.
  • 3 2
 @mikekazimer: thanks! So that fully slams to the collar? Any idea why raaw reports 30mm less insertion? Based on their site I’d figured I could only run 180 drop, but it sounds like I could actually get 210
  • 8 0
 @scotteh: Looks to me that it's about 30mm from slammed in the picture..
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: Mike, can you please confirm whether that 210 slams straight to the collar? Cheers!
  • 81 43
 The Neko love train makes lovers blind to how ugly the frameworks is.
  • 51 1
 Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave?
  • 2 5
 couldn't agree more
  • 1 2
 ....
  • 8 1
 It's like the early days of suspension bikes but with rideable geometry. Shed built look.
  • 6 0
 It’s a revised Kona Stinky w/ Horst, what’s not to love? Probably uber plush at top end of travel...
  • 2 0
 @whichoneispink: Yesssss, what we all wanted.
  • 4 0
 Some people are really into the prototype/test mule look. I don’t know why but whatever floats their boat.
  • 2 0
 Minus the seat tube angle, it doesn’t look all that far removed from the RAAW, aesthetically. The Orbea on the other hand…that’s an ugly bike…if we’re having a fashion show.
  • 2 0
 @scbullit36: Lets give credit where credit is due here. RAAW have created a very fine product, the devil is in the details, and as far as aluminum detailing goes, few are at the level that RAAW are at (I might include Knolly in the running here)
  • 1 0
 Some people are more about function than form.
  • 1 0
 @SonofBovril: if your comment is in support of Raaw here I am in total agreement. They are german after all.
  • 27 0
 I'd take that Raaw Madonna over pretty much anything else... Firstly, because I love that it's so unapologetically focused on functionality and durability and forgoes all nonsense, gimmicks and pseudo-innovation we've seen pop up these last couple of years. This bike, down to the last detail, was designed to do exactly one thing: Go very fast, over and over and over again. And I really applaud that attitude. And secondly, because it's stunning. The overall shape is super clean and the individual parts are so nicely proportioned. The raw metal finish gives it this purpose-built, focused aesthetic.
Between the functionality, durability and the looks this is the embodiment of everything I want out of a mountainbike.
  • 4 0
 True. I’d say similar things about the Banshee Titan.
  • 20 0
 It's been said time and time again...but that headset cable routing...urgh. Watching that clip with them faffing try to swap the lever over was just plain nasty to watch. I was clicking my heels and shouting "there's no place like home" to get away from it.
  • 19 1
 Raaw, Frameworks... and perhaps add the Banshee Titan to that list...; really digging the movement to simple, metal, functional and rad frames.
  • 16 4
 Add Knolly to the list of metal frames!
  • 7 9
 @wda1wustl: Add suing Intense for no reason to the list of totally not-rad things to do
  • 6 0
 Same here. I'm also at the point of my riding career where I value functionality, simplicity and durability a lot more than negligible weight savings. Keep your plastic, I'm riding metal.
  • 2 0
 @wda1wustl: Add Lynskey to the list of metal frames !
  • 8 0
 @mkul7r4: I’m no lawyer but I believe in order to maintain a patent you need to spend some effort defending it. It did seem like a frivolous lawsuit but the Knolly guys are generally very sensible so I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.
  • 3 0
 Commencal also, there are different opinions on their quality, but my Meta 29 is built like a tank, 4 seasons of winter/spring mud and all pivots are still running smooth.
There is also MDE bikes, made in Italy and cheaper than Raaw ... Wating for the new Damper this spring.
  • 7 0
 I'd add the Airdrop Edit to that list, looks like a really sensible bike by what seems like a small, passionate company.
  • 1 0
 @lkubica: Meta 29 FTW!!!
  • 1 0
 Add Privateer 161 and 141 to the list as well
  • 22 3
 I like Kaz's brakes
  • 4 2
 Are those some wacky sram 6 piston things!?
  • 14 0
 @sspiff: From Vital rumors, 4 piston but big pistons. Pictures also show closed top, 4 torx bolts to secure the halves and use mineral oil.
  • 1 0
 press release incoming next week
  • 18 1
 Dario’s seat angle offends me.
  • 12 0
 Yeaaaah Raaw. Best bikes out there right now. If I ever replace my V2.2 Madonna it will be with another Raaw. Or... a frameworks once they mature a bit.
  • 2 1
 In the same boat. V2.2 is great, but is a V3 refresh due? Quite possibly!
  • 4 0
 @initforthedonuts: I ended up ordering the UDH update, sticking with my V2.2 for a little while longer.
  • 9 0
 The Orbea headset routing is a true nightmare on my 23 Wild. Enough so that as soon as someone offers a 160/Bosch/750 alternative with the same geo minus the cable tourism I'm selling it. Seriously question how any product manager could make such a decision.
  • 2 0
 Crestline.
  • 10 0
 Brain says Occam, heart says Raaw. Occam seams better all around bike when trails are more up and down.
  • 3 0
 Probably a new Raaw Jib coming out since they updated the Madonna. Just wait on that.
  • 7 0
 Headset routing makes the decision very easy, follow your heart.
  • 1 0
 @justwan-naride: I just love my 2023 Rallon, but the switch to headset routing on the new bikes is just stupid.
  • 6 0
 Would like to know more about the shocks you guys are running on the RAAW and the Frameworks? Why did you choose what you have on the bikes? Also, what brakes are you running Kaz? I guess what I’m really saying is that a complete bike check of each bike would be nice. Thanks.
  • 33 0
 I'll have a full review of the Raaw ready to go in the next couple of months, and I'll go over the component / setup choices that worked best for me.
  • 4 1
 brakes are the yet to be released sram Mavens
  • 1 0
 @Upduro: Correct and Dario is testing them now as well.
  • 11 3
 I'd like to talk about handlebar roll and how Dario is incorrect on this front.
  • 6 0
 It feels like with HQ's desire to find his ideal set up, he's gotten a bit off track. Maybe he needs to go back to some sensible settings and start over?
  • 8 0
 God that Raaw is one sexy beast.
  • 4 0
 I started out with a 42mm stem and 35mm rise bar on my Madonna (2.2), but ended up switching to a 50mm stem and 20mm rise bars. So as much as it pains me to admit it I guess i agree with Henry about something.
  • 6 0
 The Norco hoodie with sleeves cut off and the N and the o covered up is a nice touch, Dario
  • 8 2
 What was the weight of the RAAW?
  • 14 12
 Who cares ?
  • 32 2
 @qbensis: my legs
  • 30 0
 @militiaman, as shown it's sitting at 37.5 lb / 17 kg, including the XTR Trail pedals.
  • 5 3
 @mikekazimer: that seems a lot. You were saying the other day these modern enduro bikes need to lose a bit of weight.
  • 21 0
 @allmountainrider81, keep in mind that's with DoubleDown casing tires and a coil shock. But yes, it's not the lightest thing out there. Still lighter than Dario's bike, though...
  • 8 2
 @allmountainrider81: my carbon spire with carbon hoops weighs nearly 40lbs so I’d say for a very sturdy aluminum bike, it’s not all that bad.
  • 5 7
 Weight ultimately doesn't matter. Just look at it as an extra challenge to increase your fitness Smile
  • 3 6
 @allmountainrider81: Nope. Thirty-eight pounds is the new 32, cUZ waYTe DOn’T mATteR!
  • 2 1
 @BenW774: My lungs.
  • 6 11
flag yupstate (Feb 12, 2024 at 19:06) (Below Threshold)
 @qbensis: Your legs and your lungs and your heart. The two metal bikes are good shuttle bikes or park bikes but not really the best all-arounders. I mean you can look cool in the parking lot of your local trail system bro'n out about it but then if you actually have to pedal up hills your F'd if your friends are on 25lb bikes.
  • 11 1
 @yupstate: 25 pounds? 25 pound mountain bikes?
  • 6 0
 @owl-X: You don't ride with your xc race buddies on your enduro rig?
  • 4 10
flag yupstate (Feb 13, 2024 at 6:33) (Below Threshold)
 @owl-X: Yes, lots of people on hardtails, Specialized Epics, other random 100-120mm bikes on many of my group rides. Those are the bikes that work best for most conditions not 38lb bikes. But that just depends how cool you want to look. I do have a friend that brings his 36lb Pivot Firebird to those rides also. He is the slowest up and down.
  • 11 0
 @yupstate: 'Works best for most conditions'.. I'm sorry you have such poor terrain options in your local, but a big enduro bike makes alot of sense where I live and can be fully utilized damn near every ride if that's the type of riding you prefer.
  • 3 0
 @yupstate: I’ll agree that 38 pounds is pushing it (to put it mildly), but I’d disagree that 100-120 are the bikes that work best for most conditions. I’d say that’s the other extreme and the reality is closer to the middle. As for your friend on the Firebird — is he having fun? Does he like his bike? Does it get him stoked to ride? Inspire confidence to ride what he wants? If so, just let him be happy and ride his bike. Who cares?
  • 2 1
 @gnarnaimo: Ahh, but that's for YOU. I'm questioning whether the big enduro bikes work best for the 88% of people who didn't vote for the Orbea. I'd bet my left eyebrow they don't.
  • 2 0
 @TheR: He DOES have fun, that a$$hole!
  • 6 0
 Dario out here copying Kaz's homework
  • 4 0
 The Raaw Madonna is a frame swap away from my 153 (even has the same shock size). Very tempting indeed.
  • 6 1
 @henryquinney 's stickers are egregious
  • 1 0
 42 my downhill bike e weighed 32 lbs when I had the top line carbon everything . ... my commencal meta is amazing def best Enduro bike out ..anyone that rides is like woow my bike is horrible specialized trek intense orbea rocky mountain I've snapped every bike at headtube ..i always buy knew .only bike to not snap at headtube is my commencal bikes ...I will never buy anything else
  • 4 0
 The ski strap cable routing is a classy touch on Dario’s ride
  • 3 0
 Still better than the headset routing Wink
  • 1 0
 This was a great video, and not a single ad. You've done it! Thank you @dariodigiulio @henryquinney @mikekazimer !!
Love to see this more genuine, honest approach. Go break stuff, and film it. Thats what I want to see next.
  • 2 0
 @dariodigiulio how do you like the aftermarket TRP levers? Not a lot of info on these around.
  • 11 0
 Stay tuned.
  • 1 0
 I love them. I heard TRP may be making their own though. If that's the case it is worth it. $100 is a ton of money for levers.
  • 3 2
 lol, a mass produced bike from a brand that no one cares about, a hyper refined hand built beauty, and a raw grassroots backyard project...
  • 4 1
 The Frameworks is the only answer. Cmon.
  • 1 0
 I'm trying to picture when these guys get a chance to ride any bike other than the last few coming across the review signals.
  • 1 0
 I recognize that time moves on, and all seasons change. But I wasn’t quite ready for Henry’s Spire to be missing from this type of article.
  • 1 0
 I am very pleased with my Raaw Madonna. It corners better than anything out there. I do peddle strikes regularly but it’s a worthy trade off.
  • 2 0
 would be interesting to know what size frame each bike is
  • 4 0
 They're all size larges.
  • 2 0
 Cool comparison, fellas. 42 # sounds sensible to me.
  • 2 0
 When do we get to hear about the damper on Dario’s fork?
  • 13 0
 Ah yes, the oven cleaner special
  • 1 0
 Maybe it's one of the Fast cartridges to match the shock? Just a guess its hard to see from the photos.
  • 1 0
 betterbolts.com/collections/fox/products/fox-36-38-40-top-caps
  • 1 0
 @spicysparkes: That's a bit boring, so nothing fancy inside.
  • 2 0
 Is Fox forks for all just a coincidence ?
  • 2 0
 What the hell is a cut-spike?
  • 6 1
 mud tire with trimmed knobs.

I’ve only been hearing these guys say it for 15 years
  • 2 0
 @owl-X: Talk about a weird flex, right? Let me know if you ever actually see a cut-spike in the wild.
  • 1 0
 @fentoncrackshell: haha bring me the mud tires—but only after you spend 20 minutes meticulously snipping 37% off every third knob! Chop chop!

I wish I rode even half that well. Princess and the pea over here, I’ll do the best run of my life only to realize I forgot to open my climb switch back up before dropping in…
  • 2 0
 @lookseasyfromhere, Henry’s referring to the Maxxis Shorty that I’m running. It’s essentially a cut spike, just without any cutting required - the tread (or ‘spikes’) isn’t as deep as what you’d find on a full mud tire.
  • 2 1
 Anyone run Shorty's on North Shore loamers?
  • 2 1
 I dislike using them, personally. Not the tire per se, but running them in such grippy dirt! Haha
  • 2 1
 @henryquinney: Hmmmm, so reading between the lines that might mean they would be a pretty solid choice perhaps? I find Assegais get pretty plugged up, but I'm pretty slow. Looking at faster rider's (like T-Rich Shef Shef iykyk) tires their Assegais are shedding mud, but mine are slicked. A bit of a viscous cycle perhaps- like you gotta go faster to go faster, but you can't because you don't have the gumption to do it.
  • 2 0
 @WheelNut: If it's really horrid then yes, and a more open tread pattern helps. I prefer the DHR2 though, personally, as I find it's a bit better at all the other things i like a tire to do (roots, rocks, firmer trails). Always a. compromise though.
  • 1 0
 @WheelNut, not on North Shore loamers, but I'm a fan of the Shorty up front for softer, loose trails in the winter when it's extra wet.
  • 19 0
 @henryquinney: tyre…you are British remember.
  • 1 0
 If you can get your hands on a set now, try the Continental Der Baron. They are really really good at shedding but are pretty easy rolling and not squirmy.
  • 10 0
 @Danmcdan: I know right? My bad. God save the King.
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: Are loamers on the Shore not considered loose in the winter? The dirt is very soft. Maybe the dirt in Bellingham is even softer? I'm hoping to get down there in March to sample trails (stoked). Anyhow, I guess the best way to know a tire it to try a tire.
  • 1 0
 @henryquinney: given Charles prognosis, God save indeed...

And speaking of other taboo topics. Kaz's pretty little Mavens and Darios fender sticker. No love and nary a word for either in the vid... tsk tsk
  • 1 0
 @WheelNut: if Shorty seems a bit overkill, how about a Magic Mary? A little more versatile, still digs deep into soft dirt, and sheds well.
  • 1 0
 @AndrewHornor: Seems like a good suggestion. I was talking to the 'the guys' yesterday and a couple had tried the Shorty and said it doesn't really work great on the NS. One suggested Magic Mary as well. I'll look into it!
  • 1 0
 @WheelNut: I’d also add the Michelin wild enduro, as a front it’s the tits.
  • 1 0
 the seat tube of the frameworks always looks slightly curved to my eye
  • 1 0
 Oooh the new SRAM Codes on Kaz's bike! Do tell @mikekazimer
  • 5 0
 Mavens not Codes
  • 1 0
 i love that the basque carbon bike is considered the sensible choice here
  • 1 0
 What size droppers are on all the bikes?
  • 1 0
 Need to use some better mics that don't have so much handling/cable noise.
  • 2 2
 Talk to me about the Voile strap Dario
  • 5 0
 07:58 in the video.
  • 1 2
 The story and the bike of Frameworks is great but my choise is full 29er and carbon frame...
  • 1 4
 I wish the Madonna V3 had just a little bit lower stack so you could play with bar height a little more.
  • 2 2
 Doesn't the large stack sort of make this a non-issue? Why would you even want to play with bar height if not to increase the effective height of your hands? I don't think I've ever put taller bars on a bike for any other purpose.
  • 2 3
 @Muscovir: if the stack is too heigh you can't lower it. The V3 size med has the tallest stack I have seen in a production bike.
  • 8 0
 @agnostic: ...which is a good thing in my opinion, because stack on pretty much all currently existing bikes isn't tall enough.
  • 1 0
 @agnostic: good. Btw Knolly bikes have (too) low stacks so you might like them
  • 1 4
 Was going fo the Madonna - but mixed Wheelsize? no freakin way
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